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Panther armor rebalance.

14 Jun 2019, 06:23 AM
#61
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279



Toning down TDs a bit is another perfectly valid option. My favourite would be some faster repair option for ost or pio crit repairs - also could do the job.


I'm inclined to disagree about fast repairs. I'm probably an hold out here but I remember a time when taking damage meant something. When retreating a tank with 1 hit of health meant that tank was out of commission for some time. When actions had meaning. When losing models left a squad weakened. When you as a commander had to decide if it was worth taking the damage knowing that the unit would be down for a bit.

I would rather see all repairs normalized DOWNWARD to EFA levels so dealing damage means something again.

Its horseshit grinding a unit down to the brink of death only to have it back in full operating order in 45 seconds. It devalues dealing damage and makes wipes too defining. It changes the game and not in a good way.
14 Jun 2019, 06:32 AM
#62
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1289



That would simply make it too attractive of an option and would outshine other units. It would ruin team games (again) because all you would need is panthers

Reducing the front armour does nothing against its intended counters while making it weaker against other units. Premium mediums would have an easier time brawling with the panther in exchange for being more durable when flanked?

Allied TDs need toning down. Don't adjust a functioning unit due to an overperforming one


The king tiger with 375 armour and 1280 hitpoints being non doctrinal is the cause of the current allied td's.

And like the panther the kingtiger was fielded nearly every game. While allies already struggled to deal with panthers at the time.
Allies did little more the scratch the paint jobs at that time.

So if we tone the allies td's down (wich i am not against) how do the allies fight the non doc kt?

Do we make it one per game? So if allies need to sacrifice about half their army just to kill it okw doesnt have a new one a click away. This goes esp in team games.

Do we make the kt doctinal?
Do we buff doctrinal heavy arty again?

Just curious because few people seem to think about what would happen if allied td's get toned down, esp to pre buff levels. They dont say by how much and what the should be able to counter.
14 Jun 2019, 07:25 AM
#63
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1351



I'm inclined to disagree about fast repairs. I'm probably an hold out here but I remember a time when taking damage meant something. When retreating a tank with 1 hit of health meant that tank was out of commission for some time. When actions had meaning. When losing models left a squad weakened. When you as a commander had to decide if it was worth taking the damage knowing that the unit would be down for a bit.

I would rather see all repairs normalized DOWNWARD to EFA levels so dealing damage means something again.

Its horseshit grinding a unit down to the brink of death only to have it back in full operating order in 45 seconds. It devalues dealing damage and makes wipes too defining. It changes the game and not in a good way.


Agreed - either one way or another - but should be more unified for sure at the current stage of the game. If churchill gets auto crit repairs, ost should have sth similar (not identical). I always felt this power creep with repairs is crazy (even if people want crit repairs it should be way more expensive - should make you decide - do I want to spent say 60 munitions on a crit or get some offmap sooner).
15 Jun 2019, 06:05 AM
#64
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1793

I thought SU85 and FF are ok TD, no need nerf.
Jackson is overperforming for its costs though, speed accuracy pen damage and 2click self repair.

We can start by making Usf crew repair 75% slower, and see how. 2 click repair without using resources and popcap, needs to do worse in today patched games.

I say the reason why many feel allies TD are too strong, is what are supporting them now. Thats why i suggest to try redistribute Panther armor. At least it bridged a gap between Allies med and AI heavies. Clearer distinction in units tier.

Now that Ostwind and Stug got some buff.

I know doing this armor thing seems a big change, but i think its not if you go down the numbers.
16 Jun 2019, 17:57 PM
#65
avatar of NaOCl

Posts: 369

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Jun 2019, 06:05 AMmrgame2
I thought SU85 and FF are ok TD, no need nerf.
Jackson is overperforming for its costs though, speed accuracy pen damage and 2click self repair.

We can start by making Usf crew repair 75% slower, and see how. 2 click repair without using resources and popcap, needs to do worse in today patched games.

I say the reason why many feel allies TD are too strong, is what are supporting them now. Thats why i suggest to try redistribute Panther armor. At least it bridged a gap between Allies med and AI heavies. Clearer distinction in units tier.

Now that Ostwind and Stug got some buff.

I know doing this armor thing seems a big change, but i think its not if you go down the numbers.


Focus on panther's ahistorical role as a TD in this game, as Axis doesn't have a TD. (Don't make me laugh by mentioning JPIV)
18 Jun 2019, 14:27 PM
#66
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1793

Panther in Coh and Coh2 original design was heavy armor late non-doc tank. It does not shoot too fast and accurate, its pintle not good. The patches have kinda disrupt this design and also allies Td. Yes its historical role is not recognisable.

Lobbying for the mod team to test my armor re-distribution suggestion. I think it is fair shot.
15 Aug 2019, 02:52 AM
#67
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1793

With proposed sbp19 buff to comet and 18 pop Churchill, i think keeping comet pop to 18 is fine. Correspondingly panther to remain 18 too.
15 Aug 2019, 10:11 AM
#68
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

the panther is fine... stop trying to buff it...
15 Aug 2019, 22:27 PM
#69
avatar of someonewithideas

Posts: 27

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Aug 2019, 10:11 AMgbem
the panther is fine... stop trying to buff it...


I'd argue it's actually too much.

It has really good speed and insane reverse. It takes six hits to kill now and is very hard to counter mutliple it usually sneaks in and kills anything in a dive attack without actual micro play.

It could use an HP reduction.
15 Aug 2019, 22:55 PM
#70
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 1392



I'd argue it's actually too much.

It has really good speed and insane reverse. It takes six hits to kill now and is very hard to counter mutliple it usually sneaks in and kills anything in a dive attack without actual micro play.

It could use an HP reduction.


You ever used snares? A Panther with broken engine is a gg, use your range and Panther can't deal tank-destroyers. You will not have more than 2 Panther, because of pop-cap (if you wan't to rep them with more than one Pio).

Panther is only useful versus heavies, beside that there are better solutions.
16 Aug 2019, 03:12 AM
#71
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1793



I'd argue it's actually too much.

It has really good speed and insane reverse. It takes six hits to kill now and is very hard to counter mutliple it usually sneaks in and kills anything in a dive attack without actual micro play.

It could use an HP reduction.


What? no...
Maybe in 4v4 with fresh built units, multiple panthers work well.
But panthers problem as i highlighted, is poor scaling for its cost. Allies td performance pulls further with every vet, until a fresh panther fail against late games allies
Hence this topic is to rebalance panther so that it works fairer late games.
26 Aug 2019, 01:21 AM
#72
avatar of Mr.Flush

Posts: 450



You ever used snares? A Panther with broken engine is a gg, use your range and Panther can't deal tank-destroyers. You will not have more than 2 Panther, because of pop-cap (if you wan't to rep them with more than one Pio).

Panther is only useful versus heavies, beside that there are better solutions.


Axis have elephant, jagtigers, and snares. Do what allies have to do to kill one of those beasts. Why do axis players frontally assault everything instead of flanking?
26 Aug 2019, 01:23 AM
#73
avatar of Mr.Flush

Posts: 450

All you have to do is move your tanks where allies don't have los and get a volley off on a tank destroyer. The second volley will kill your target.
26 Aug 2019, 01:35 AM
#74
avatar of Mr.Flush

Posts: 450

If you are concerned about the panther is2 matchup just increase its penetration.
26 Aug 2019, 01:37 AM
#75
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1793

All you have to do is move your tanks where allies don't have los and get a volley off on a tank destroyer. The second volley will kill your target.


Yep, sounds easier than sitting back with cheaper 60 range tanks i guess...
26 Aug 2019, 01:45 AM
#76
avatar of Mr.Flush

Posts: 450

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Aug 2019, 01:37 AMmrgame2


Yep, sounds easier than sitting back with cheaper 60 range tanks i guess...


No different than the elephant sitting back. If you are having trouble assaulting TDs combine Panthers with cas. One of the doctrines has a tiger in it.
Vaz
26 Aug 2019, 03:09 AM
#77
avatar of Vaz

Posts: 1158

The panthers diving ability is very hard to stop, that's why I put m20 mines behind front lines, high chance to lose your panther if you make an attempt to dive my priest.
26 Aug 2019, 04:47 AM
#78
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1793

No increasing it pen might be seen as too effective buff to all enemies vehicle.

There are other suggestions to make combat blitz more offensive bonus.

But rearranging its armor and giving it stronger rear just seems more logically and in line with Wehr theme. The extra moving accuracy buff also fit its role as a hunter. This make panther grow stronger against med tanks as it should

Allies TD get really strong vet bonus which pretty much zone out all axis stock tanks imo. panther seems forgotten just because its armor value seems high...but really as shown the shoot down between hulled kv1s vs panthers, its not.
26 Aug 2019, 05:05 AM
#79
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1793

Panther moving accuracy 0.5x0.06 = 0.03
Churchill moving accuracy 0.75x0.05 = 0.0375

25% better for allies...
Even my suggested vet buff to panther moving accuracy makea it 0.036, still behind Churchill
26 Aug 2019, 06:28 AM
#80
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Aug 2019, 01:37 AMmrgame2


Yep, sounds easier than sitting back with cheaper 60 range tanks i guess...

If 1 "cheaper 60 range tank" is enough to shut your all armor, you have some serious learning of play to do.
Alternatively, stop spamming panthers against units that aren't even in opponents doctrinal choice?

Panther isn't answer to all golden boy, other units are more suited for other situations, you know, like countering TDs.

If allies can deal with ele and JT, you are mentally capable of learning to deal with much more fragile, less threatening and lower range versions too.
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