Login

russian armor

Veteran Squad leader upgrade weapon poll

What weapon do you think the Veteran Squad Leader should carry?
Option Distribution Votes
32%
11%
47%
11%
Total votes: 38
Vote VOTE! Vote ABSTAIN
3 Jun 2019, 21:43 PM
#1
avatar of GI John 412

Posts: 243

Many are currently enjoying and embracing the new WM Grenadier upgrade that adds a 5th man to the squad. Currently this Veteran Squad Leader (VSL) is armed with a scoped G43 semi automatic rifle. The official Table of Organization and Equipment (TO&E) for a German rifle squad calls for ten soldiers armed with mostly K98ks, one MG34 or MG42 on a bipod in the LMG role and one MP40 carried by the squad leader. Later this MP40 would be substituted or replaced by an StG44 as more became available, but it varied from unit to unit. G43s were only issued in small numbers to designated marksmen at the company level.

History aside, the WM Grenadier squad can get three possible upgrades.

1. Non-doctrinal LMG42 upgrade. This represents the 1 MG42 on a bipod real squads would have.

2. Doctrinal G43 upgrade. Gives two G43 sniper rifles to the squad. Much less realistic, but gameplay > realism.

3. VSL upgrade that adds one extra soldier to the squad who has a G43 and some special attributes and buffs the squad.

2/3 of these involve the quite rare G43 rifle, which seems a little redundant considering the number of other possibilities.

So I ask you; what weapon would you like to see the veteran squad leader carry? Are you happy with a G43 or would you prefer something else?

Vote and discuss below!

But keep it clean and play nice.
3 Jun 2019, 21:51 PM
#2
avatar of WAAAGH2000

Posts: 161

I think maybe VSL and jager traning can be one ability……
Grenadier upgrade with squad size +1 free medic some bouns and 1xG43
PG upgrade get 2x G43 and unlock mark target and repair ability
StumTroopers use all weapon slot and give full squad with G43 or use 1 slot got GLI sniper G43
3 Jun 2019, 22:18 PM
#3
avatar of GI John 412

Posts: 243

I think maybe VSL and jager traning can be one ability……
Grenadier upgrade with squad size +1 free medic some bouns and 1xG43
PG upgrade get 2x G43 and unlock mark target and repair ability
StumTroopers use all weapon slot and give full squad with G43 or use 1 slot got GLI sniper G43


That’s a bit beyond the scope of the question.....
3 Jun 2019, 22:33 PM
#4
avatar of RoastinGhost

Posts: 201

Having the G43 for both upgrades feels too similar.

A captured PPSh would be great for flavor, since the leader is a veteran and it was a very common captured weapon.
For gameplay purposes, a weapon with a mid-range curve would be best, like a Volksgrenadier StG.
So, I'd prefer either of those.

I also think it would be cool if the squad's icon changed with the upgrade:


That would be a fun CoH1 callback, even if the symbols for volks and grens were switched around in that game.
3 Jun 2019, 22:42 PM
#5
avatar of GI John 412

Posts: 243



I also think it would be cool if the squad's icon changed with the upgrade:


That would be a fun CoH1 callback, even if the symbols for volks and grens were switched around in that game.


Agreed. That’s a cool way of showing it, but it would also need to have the “white gun” upgrade indicator for consistancy if nothing else.
3 Jun 2019, 23:10 PM
#6
avatar of RoastinGhost

Posts: 201




For sure; changing the weapon from a G43 would make the upgrade indicator less ambiguous as well.
3 Jun 2019, 23:27 PM
#7
avatar of WAAAGH2000

Posts: 161



That’s a bit beyond the scope of the question.....

Yeah……but I think G43 big problem is for PG not useful even is nerf upgrade……and I worry about sniper G43 for Grenadier,it will make Jager “heavy”Infantry come back……Maybe sniper G43 for stumtroopers only?For now only Elite Troopers Doc can have this,also make Elite Troopers ST special
4 Jun 2019, 00:38 AM
#8
avatar of Farlion

Posts: 53

None of the others fit the role and stats of the Grenadier. Adding a PSSH or Mp40 would be nothing short of a nerf.

4 Jun 2019, 01:00 AM
#9
avatar of GI John 412

Posts: 243

None of the others fit the role and stats of the Grenadier. Adding a PSSH or Mp40 would be nothing short of a nerf.



The stats of the weapon could be modified, and not all weapons of the same name have the same stats.

For example, there are Pioneer MP40s and storm trooper MP40s. Not the same stats.

Giving the veteran squad leader an MP40 or StG44 could be a mid to close range damage boost plus the extra health of having an extra man. This helps show the roles of each upgrade.

MG42- better long range DPS while stationary.

G43s- better damage while moving and at all ranges, but not as good as MG42 at range.

VSL with StG44 or MP40- better DPS at close range (kinda like Captain or LT Thompson) that helps defend the squad from rushing enemies. Also adds the other stat bonuses and the extra health.

So you basically are choosing from

A. Better damage (MG42)
B. Better maneuverability (G43s)
C. Better survivability (VSL w/StG44 or MP40)

Currently the VSL overlaps a lot with the G43s and the only reason to pick one over the other is because they exist in different doctrines.
4 Jun 2019, 13:10 PM
#10
avatar of Lago

Posts: 2032

Currently the VSL overlaps a lot with the G43s and the only reason to pick one over the other is because they exist in different doctrines.




And that's not even including the cooldown bonuses VSL gets. Then consider the RA boost and the extra man's survivability and you've got ittle reason to pick anything else if you have VSL available.

VSL is pretty much just a flat out better G43 upgrade.

But it's also 60 munitions versus the G43 upgrade's 45, suffers more manpower bleed than the other two options and going German Infantry means giving up the toys the G43 doctrines have.

It's the best Grenadier upgrade, but it comes at a cost.
4 Jun 2019, 13:42 PM
#11
avatar of GI John 412

Posts: 243

Exactly my point Lago. If it were a different more close ranged weapon, you would still reap the benefits of surviveability and also be significantly less of a “no brainer” pick.

Whatever is done with VSL, LMG42 play should still be a viable option. If it isn’t, then it’s not a choice of “which do I choose?”, it’s just an obvious “ always pick this one every time.”

On a side note, I’d be curious to see a test where LMG Grenadiers fight VSL Grenadiers at various ranges with and without cover.
4 Jun 2019, 17:12 PM
#12
avatar of aerafield

Posts: 1630

Give it the OKW JLI G43 sniper rifle so all the bad players who claim WM is weak in teamgames can have a positive gaming experience :)
4 Jun 2019, 18:59 PM
#13
avatar of Enkidu

Posts: 327

I think I’m just on a pistol kick of late, but I’d love to see more and better pistols. I’d vote improved Luger.
5 Jun 2019, 16:18 PM
#14
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 2590

@OP maybe don't call it a sniper rifle/scoped G43. The scoped G43 is what JLI use and it crits models below 75% HP for an instant kill. The standard G43 is a semi automatic rifle designed for mid/close range combat but is also decent at long. The exact opposite of the scoped G43 the JLI use.
5 Jun 2019, 17:57 PM
#15
avatar of GI John 412

Posts: 243

@OP maybe don't call it a sniper rifle/scoped G43. The scoped G43 is what JLI use and it crits models below 75% HP for an instant kill. The standard G43 is a semi automatic rifle designed for mid/close range combat but is also decent at long. The exact opposite of the scoped G43 the JLI use.


I called it a scoped G43 because the model of the G43 rifle has a scope on it.

But you are right, it is a different rifle from what the JLI have statistically, even though both models are the same.

These inconsistencies between firearms is one of my top things to see changed in CoH 3, but that’s a subject for another day. :)
6 Jun 2019, 05:13 AM
#16
avatar of CombCrab

Posts: 41

Personally, I would like the VSL to have a ppsh with a more generous mid range dps curve but underwhelming firepower, compared to shock or conscript ppsh at close range, this would make the squad more versatile, but won't be as good as mg42 or g43 in their respective roles.

If the ppsh proves to be way worse than the g43, slightly higher bonuses to the squad may work.

The MP40 would also work, may even be better, due to the fact that my suggested profile fits the MP40 better.

I don't think that the STG44 would be a good choice. It would probably be too good if it has a similar profile to volk STG and the squad would become too similar to volks(5 man K98s and STG44s). I think that these squads should feel different.

Though, I don't think this change is necessary, and the balance team should probably focus on other stuff.
7 Jun 2019, 15:00 PM
#17
avatar of NaOCl

Posts: 265

Mp40 or stg, pref mp40 to differ from OKW.
7 Jun 2019, 16:23 PM
#18
avatar of GI John 412

Posts: 243



The MP40 would also work, may even be better, due to the fact that my suggested profile fits the MP40 better.

I don't think that the STG44 would be a good choice. It would probably be too good if it has a similar profile to volk STG and the squad would become too similar to volks(5 man K98s and STG44s). I think that these squads should feel different.

Though, I don't think this change is necessary, and the balance team should probably focus on other stuff.


In terms of making it feel different, I think the StG fits the role the best to differentiate VSL Grens from other WM units.

Currently WM can get MP40 equipped Grenadiers as Assault Grenadiers, G43 equipped Grenadiers with the G43 upgrade, MG42s as the standard upgrade and another type of G43 upgrade as the current VSL upgrade.

An StG44 upgrade to Grens would be different, as the only unit that currently gets StG44s in WM are PanzerGrenadiers.

OKW overuses StG44s in their faction design, just like WM overuses MP40s and underuses Kar98ks.

I’d like to see Relic look at real tables of organization and equipment when they make CoH 3. At least as a baseline for core units.

I mean just look at production numbers. 400,000 StGs of all types vs 1,100,000 MP40s vs 14,000,000 Kar98ks! For every StG in the game there should be roughly 2 MP40s and 35 Kar98ks!
10 Jun 2019, 17:40 PM
#19
avatar of Lugie
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 303

I say just copy what CoH1 did. Give the squad leader a rifle with the model of a smg. Adding another man onto the squad is enough already, giving said man a better weapon than the rest of the squad is just too much imao.
10 Jun 2019, 21:12 PM
#20
avatar of GI John 412

Posts: 243

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Jun 2019, 17:40 PMLugie
I say just copy what CoH1 did. Give the squad leader a rifle with the model of a smg. Adding another man onto the squad is enough already, giving said man a better weapon than the rest of the squad is just too much imao.


The exact stats of the weapon could be significantly different than what other other versions of it are.

You could make an StG44 that fires in either semi auto or in short bursts that isn’t nearly as powerful as the version Panzergrenadiers get for example.

That’s also why I suggested that an MP40 could be a viable option. Bad long range damage means that it would contribute little directly to the squads outgoing firepower, but the received accuracy buff the leader gives the squad plus his own extra model of health significantly helps at all ranges by helping survivability. The short range power of an MP40 wouldn’t change the role of the squad into an assault unit, but instead help it repel assaults on it as I already mentioned above.

In short, I agree with you.
1 user is browsing this thread: 1 guest

Ladders Top 10

  • #
    Steam Alias
    W
    L
    %
    Streak
Data provided by Relic Relic Entertainment

Replay highlight

VS
  • Ostheer flag Jove
  • Soviets flag VonIvan
uploaded by VonIvan

Board Info

165 users are online: 10 members and 155 guests
Farlion, Alphrum, Escapist, elchino7, Nashka, NaOCl, Crecer13, Esxile, A. Soldier, Käsezwerg
245 posts in the last 24h
1700 posts in the last week
5315 posts in the last month
Registered members: 38913
Welcome our newest member, 3taylorc32100eo5
Most online: 805 users on 28 Oct 2018, 01:04 AM