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russian armor

Infantry Sections, Upgrades, and Bolster

15 May 2019, 05:08 AM
#1
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

I was thinking how much of a pain I find it to use Infantry Sections, how strong they are when used to their full potential, but how rigid the right upgrade path is. They have many options but the "correct" option is almost always Healing and Double Bren. Without base healing and with the higher cost of the smoke (both upgrade and throw) versus its effectiveness, using the artillery path seems to be more punishing than rewarding. The goal is to make Infantry Sections less reliant on the heal upgrade as well as promote build variety.



Bolster Infantry is now combined with squad upgrades (Medic/Smoke) and is made more accessible early on. Bolster Infantry no longer automatically increases squad size, instead three options are unlocked so that a new soldier may be added depending on the role desired. The new options are:

Recon Team Upgrade: Adds a Marksman to the squad and unlocks the Artillery Flares. The Marksman will pick off wounded models and his Scoped Lee–Enfield (transferable, no drop) takes one weapon slot.

Medic Team Upgrade: Adds a Combat Medic with a Lee-Enfield to the squad and unlocks the ability to place Medical Crates. The medic passively heals his unit while out of combat and occupies one weapon slot.

Bolster Section: Adds a 5th man with no unique qualities or abilities, a minor increase to staying power and damage output. He does not take a weapon slot so this squad can equip two weapons.


Due to the way the new Bolster works, the new member will need reinforced in even on new squads (unless the game supports automatically adding a man, then it will do that). To compensate, Infantry Sections are cheaper and Squad Upgrades are instant. The positive side of this is that getting an early or late bolster always costs the same.

The concept still needs fleshing out, but this is the basic idea.
15 May 2019, 07:17 AM
#2
avatar of SeductiveCardbordBox

Posts: 591 | Subs: 1

I think you're underestimating the additional strength of the artillery flares. The vision range increase on mainline is a huge deal.

Medic sections are still an early game necessity and the hideous build time on the forward assembly make base healing a hard sell, but being able to tough it up and invest gives your army some fantastic line of sight.

At least in the more tightly packed 2v2 and up I get a lot out of limiting myself to one or two medic sections.


Regardless - any solution that makes brit healing harder to proc is going to be a damn hard sell. Dropping kits is all well and good, but the proposal still encorages just adding a self heal passive to every infantry section and makes it even mkre painful to heal AT guns and MGs

If you want to address it, giving brits a base object they can make into a medic station without teching, buying a RE squad, and then spending half an age building a forward assembly is the start point.
15 May 2019, 08:29 AM
#3
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13477 | Subs: 1

I like the idea but I would actually prefer something different.

Hammer and anvil become a choice one can have of each tier.

For tier 0:
IS cost down to 260
Picking Anvil unlocks Piat and Vickers K but leaves IS as 4 men squad.

Picking Hammer unlocks Piat and Bren and squad size becomes 5. Bren now use a a profile closer to an assault rifle can be fired on the move and cover mechanism is removed.

This way the player can choose if he want his infatry to be defensively or offensively oriented.

As seductivecardbox pointed you underestimating pyrotechnics especially with vet 1 vision bonus.
15 May 2019, 11:00 AM
#4
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

I think just raising the cost of Bolster to 60 FU would do it.

Bolster's balanced out by delaying anti-vehicle tech, but right you can easily go four Sections, Bolster, tech and get an AEC out in time to deal with the enemy light vehicle.

Up that to 60, and you'll be fighting that light vehicle with 6-pounders and Royal Engineers if you open with Bolster.
15 May 2019, 11:10 AM
#5
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17909 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post15 May 2019, 11:00 AMLago
I think just raising the cost of Bolster to 60 FU would do it.

Bolster's balanced out by delaying anti-vehicle tech, but right you can easily go four Sections, Bolster, tech and get an AEC out in time to deal with the enemy light vehicle.

Up that to 60, and you'll be fighting that light vehicle with 6-pounders and Royal Engineers if you open with Bolster.

Can we stop soft-removing abilities and upgrades from the game by making them so cost inefficient that only a comp stomper would get them?
15 May 2019, 11:13 AM
#6
avatar of Aarotron

Posts: 563

imo best possible way to change them is to simply remove bolster make that tommies are 5 man squad from the getgo (sappers could get it via vet like rear echelons) this way the firepower and survivability of the sections could be adjusted more easily and help with possible buffs, as you dont need to take bolster to account anymore.
15 May 2019, 11:31 AM
#7
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17909 | Subs: 8

imo best possible way to change them is to simply remove bolster make that tommies are 5 man squad from the getgo (sappers could get it via vet like rear echelons) this way the firepower and survivability of the sections could be adjusted more easily and help with possible buffs, as you dont need to take bolster to account anymore.

But then UKF would be long range oriented USF clone.
15 May 2019, 11:33 AM
#8
avatar of Aarotron

Posts: 563

jump backJump back to quoted post15 May 2019, 11:31 AMKatitof

But then UKF would be long range oriented USF clone.


lets make them 35 mp reinforce again :D
15 May 2019, 11:47 AM
#9
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

jump backJump back to quoted post15 May 2019, 11:10 AMKatitof
Can we stop soft-removing abilities and upgrades from the game by making them so cost inefficient that only a comp stomper would get them?


Bolster is manpower and popcap efficient. If you use Bolster to stick an extra man in each of your four infantry squads, you spend less manpower immediately and lose less manpower on squad upkeep in the long run.

Bolster is essentially a fuel-for-manpower trade. The fuel is the part that balances it: you're trading a manpower advantage for a teching disadvantage.

Right now, that disadvantage is so small that you always tech Bolster. You can build four Sections, tech Bolster, and you'll still have the AEC in time to kill the light vehicle.

If you want Bolster to be a decision than a no-brainer, then it needs to cost more. If you raise the manpower you defeat the point, so you need to raise the fuel.
15 May 2019, 11:53 AM
#10
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17909 | Subs: 8

Really? Delaying first vehicle by about two minutes is "small disadvantage"?
Do you know what luchs can do within 2 minutes when it has free reign?
What flame 251 will do in that time?

Its less of an impact on the way to med armor, but getting it pre-light phase can be completely crippling if opponent capitalizes on lights.
15 May 2019, 11:55 AM
#11
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

jump backJump back to quoted post15 May 2019, 11:53 AMKatitof
Really? Delaying first vehicle by about two minutes is "small disadvantage"?
Do you know what luchs can do within 2 minutes when it has free reign?
What flame 251 will do in that time?


Very little, because the map control you get from a bolstered quad-Section build means the AEC comes out fast enough to deal with it.
15 May 2019, 15:20 PM
#12
avatar of insaneHoshi

Posts: 911

jump backJump back to quoted post15 May 2019, 11:53 AMKatitof

Do you know what luchs can do within 2 minutes when it has free reign?



Do you know the fuel cost difference between a Luchs vs and AEC + Bolster?
15 May 2019, 18:26 PM
#13
avatar of miragefla
Developer Relic Badge

Posts: 1304 | Subs: 13

jump backJump back to quoted post15 May 2019, 11:53 AMKatitof
Really? Delaying first vehicle by about two minutes is "small disadvantage"?
Do you know what luchs can do within 2 minutes when it has free reign?
What flame 251 will do in that time?

Its less of an impact on the way to med armor, but getting it pre-light phase can be completely crippling if opponent capitalizes on lights.


Problem is Sections are going to club all infantry for the next 5-10 minutes and they also got ATGs and snares if they really need to fallback on stuff. This means you're entirely reliant on support weapons, snipers, or LVs to stand a chance.

On the topic, I wouldn't mind Scoped Lee Enfields coming back in the Pyrotechnics kit and if Brits got healing outside the Assembly or the Assembly was easier to deploy to get base healing, adjust Med-kits because it not only allows for a lot of healing presence but it's fairly cheap for what it does.

The Infantry Section in general has a lot of things going for them once they hit 5 men.

-High burst damage (16 damage per rifle)
-High survivability against small-arms in and out of cover (0.8 RA)
-Good DPS at range and burst damage helps make up for their weaker short-range by quick model drops.
-Self-healing via upgrade
-Double LMGs for extreme late game
-28mp reinforce for their power
15 May 2019, 19:48 PM
#14
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17909 | Subs: 8

I wonder, how it could turn out if upgrades were untouched, but tommies themselves were made more expensive as a base(without increasing reinforce cost).

That would discourage early game spamming, diminish early game presence, increase reliance on HMG and UC.

Problem is, they could have too little map presence early game.
15 May 2019, 20:14 PM
#15
avatar of EtherealDragon

Posts: 1890 | Subs: 1



On the topic, I wouldn't mind Scoped Lee Enfields coming back in the Pyrotechnics kit and if Brits got healing outside the Assembly or the Assembly was easier to deploy to get base healing, adjust Med-kits because it not only allows for a lot of healing presence but it's fairly cheap for what it does.



I'm confused I thought the Scoped Enfields were just purely cosmetic at Vet 3 to reflect the accuracy increase but otherwise had no other effect aside from turning sections into weapon pinatas?
15 May 2019, 20:28 PM
#16
avatar of miragefla
Developer Relic Badge

Posts: 1304 | Subs: 13



I'm confused I thought the Scoped Enfields were just purely cosmetic at Vet 3 to reflect the accuracy increase but otherwise had no other effect aside from turning sections into weapon pinatas?


In the files as it is now, it actually deals more DPS. Not a crazy amount, but it is better than the standard rifle. Though, if it were to return, I would modify so it'd be different and take up a single weapon slot.
16 May 2019, 00:42 AM
#17
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

jump backJump back to quoted post15 May 2019, 11:00 AMLago
I think just raising the cost of Bolster to 60 FU would do it.

The idea was for it to come early enough to have a transformative effect on your army, raising the cost dramatically is counter-intuitive.


On the topic, I wouldn't mind Scoped Lee Enfields coming back in the Pyrotechnics kit and if Brits got healing outside the Assembly or the Assembly was easier to deploy to get base healing, adjust Med-kits because it not only allows for a lot of healing presence but it's fairly cheap for what it does.

No doubt they're a powerful unit, but healing is so restrictive unless you build a FHQ

Yeah that was one of my aims, try to expand the capacity for healing, so people don't feel pressured to have mostly healing squads. Crates were meant to give the squad some lasting medical presence even when they're busy elsewhere.


jump backJump back to quoted post15 May 2019, 19:48 PMKatitof
I wonder, how it could turn out if upgrades were untouched, but tommies themselves were made more expensive as a base(without increasing reinforce cost).

That would discourage early game spamming, diminish early game presence, increase reliance on HMG and UC.

Problem is, they could have too little map presence early game.

In another world, that sounds like how OKW could have been. Have extremely expensive but highly effective infantry (MP's MG's and StG's), but few in number and with the Kubelwagen picking up the slack.
16 May 2019, 06:35 AM
#18
avatar of blancat

Posts: 810

good idea

i like this one

but i want to know bolster upgrade cost in this idea

Mp&fuel cost is need for balance but it seems only cost munition
16 May 2019, 16:18 PM
#19
avatar of Balanced_Gamer

Posts: 783

Sounds interesting the idea!
18 May 2019, 06:06 AM
#20
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1794



lets make them 35 mp reinforce again :D


Yes is fair.
Right now 5 man IS is 28 reinforce 8 pop cap
Grens 30 reinforce 7 pop cap

If i am not wrong bolster also give faster XP.
And you see how much weaker Ost gets late game.
Always pop cap, resource limited.
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