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Poll - Buff unviable commander abilities

Osttruppen Reserves - Which idea do you like best?
Option Distribution Votes
13%
6%
68%
0%
13%
German Mechanized Group - Which idea do you like best?
Option Distribution Votes
34%
19%
38%
0%
9%
Supply Drop - Which idea do you like best?
Option Distribution Votes
3%
32%
23%
6%
35%
Total votes: 94
Vote VOTE! Vote ABSTAIN
16 Apr 2019, 15:24 PM
#1
avatar of DerbyHat

Posts: 349 | Subs: 1

Hello, I'd like to suggest some small buffs to commander abilities that I would consider unviable. With this I mean their cost and/or timing does not fit their performance.

I'd like to focus on Ostheer for the original post. I know these abilities are not necessarily on weak doctrines, so fixing them is no high priority. I also know other factions, especially Soviets, also have abilities that are not worth it (Assault Guards for example), so feel free to dicuss that here.

Osttruppen Reserves
Commander: Mobile Defense Doctrine
Cost: 425 manpower
Timing: 3 CP
Gives: Two Osttruppen squads, either squad has 10% chance to come with a pre-equipped lmg42

Problem
I get the point of this ability. You get two cheap squads that immediately arrive on the battlefield and can be used to cap and to stall the enemy. However, at 3 CP most Allied squads destroy unvetted Osttruppen and light vehicles have already hit the field, making 425 manpower a hefty investment for units that can't fight infantry or vehicles effectively. Two Grenadiers don't cost much more at 480 manpower and are more flexible and scale better.

Ideas
1. Lower CP requirement to 2 and lower manpower cost to 360~380. Remove chance of lmg42.
2. Replace with Relief Infantry (gives Mobile Defense a way to use munitions).
3. Rework to single Osttruppen squad with 2 AT rifles (would help the doctrine after Puma nerf).


Mechanized Grenadier Group
Commander: German Mechanized Doctrine
Cost: 500 manpower and 20 fuel
Timing: 3 CP
Gives: A Grenadier with pre-equipped lmg42 in a 250 halftrack.

Problem
Even after the 250 buff and slight fuel cost reduction (30 to 20), this is the one 250 ability that I don't consider ever worth it. It does not have the early timing of Infantry Doctrine's 250 nor the potential to skip T2 as Mechanized Assault's 250 (which has Panzergrenadiers). At the 3 CP mark, it arrives when you generally have all the light vehicles and Grenadiers you need. At this point, Axis is more concerned with getting proper AT to counter the M20/Stuart combo, T70 or AEC/Valentine combo, than investing 500 manpower into a (now) flimsy clowncar.

Ideas
1. Lower CP requirement to 2 and lower manpower cost to 450.
2. Lower CP requirement to 2 and let the Grenadiers arrive with 2 stars of veterancy (gives +40% accuracy).
3. Replace with Mechanized Assault Group (250 halftrack with Panzergrenadiers).


Supply Drop
Commander: Osttruppen Doctrine
Cost: 450 manpower
Timing: 4 CP
Gives: An uncrewed pak40, uncrewed mg34, 10 fuel, 25 munitions

Problem
This ability is in an awkward spot. The AT gun arrives after Allied light vehicles have hit the field (2~3 CP), so you already have an AT gun in most cases. Skipping T2 with this drop is not viable either, as the Osttruppen strategy requires light vehicles to work. You're also not saving resources with the drop, as the manpower cost is the same as building an mg42 and pak40 seperately, when recrewing with Osttruppen (578 vs 580 manpower). You're effectively trading the stronger mg42 for a late mg34, 10 fuel and 25 munitions. Its only real use is getting a 20 second earlier P4 or to give a proper AT-gun to your OKW teammate (but then, who uses Osttruppen in team games?)

Ideas
1. Lower CP requirement to 3 and change 10 fuel and 25 munitions to 20 fuel (Osttruppen doctrine already tends to float munitions).
2. Lower CP requirement to 3 and change cost to 250~300 manpower and 60~80 munitions. Fuel and munition crates removed (gives Osttruppen doctrine a way to use early munitions. Brings cost closer to Allied team weapon drops).
3. Lower CP requirement to 3 and replace mg34 with mg42 (makes ability a straight up better option if you need both an AT gun and hmg).



What's the opinion here of these abilities? Do you personally use them or have them had used against you? What do you think of buffing them? Would these ideas be a good way of doing that? Are there other abilities you do not consider worth it (even not situationally)?
16 Apr 2019, 16:31 PM
#2
avatar of IncendiaryRounds:)

Posts: 839

I actually liked the original supply drop from Ostruppen doc.
16 Apr 2019, 16:36 PM
#3
avatar of adamírcz

Posts: 612 | Subs: 1

I didnt even know the first two ideas exist :rofl::rofl:

Thumbs up for trying to come up with ideas on bringing practically non-existent stuff back in the game
16 Apr 2019, 17:24 PM
#4
avatar of Lago

Posts: 1862

I'd replace Relief Infantry with Ostruppen Reserves rather than the other way around.
16 Apr 2019, 17:42 PM
#5
avatar of DerbyHat

Posts: 349 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Apr 2019, 17:24 PMLago
I'd replace Relief Infantry with Ostruppen Reserves rather than the other way around.


why? Do think find Relief Infantry is weak? I think it comes a bit late at 6 CP, but I still find it more useful than Osttruppen Reserves.
16 Apr 2019, 17:57 PM
#6
avatar of A. Soldier
Social Media Manager Badge

Posts: 2423 | Subs: 2



why? Do think find Relief Infantry is weak? I think it comes a bit late at 6 CP, but I still find it more useful than Osttruppen Reserves.


It's counterintuative for this game, you're encouraged to save your units for their experience but this ability is the other way around, please send 12 of your guys to die so you can get 2 squads of Osttruppen, like, why?
16 Apr 2019, 18:09 PM
#7
avatar of Lago

Posts: 1862

why? Do think find Relief Infantry is weak? I think it comes a bit late at 6 CP, but I still find it more useful than Osttruppen Reserves.


It's a weird, awkward ability. Pretty much what A. Soldier said.
16 Apr 2019, 18:14 PM
#8
avatar of EtherealDragon

Posts: 1412 | Subs: 1

Relief Infantry would be better if it's duration was increased by a little bit I think. It would be nice if Ostruppen Reserves were equipped with entrenching tools (sandbags and such) and maybe have an option to upgrade AT Rifles and Light AT Mines to better fit defensive theme. Honestly for Mechanized I think it would be cleanest to just give them the plain 250 HT ability from Infantry (or lock the group behind BP1 so it has same timing if you *really* want the combo). For supply drop I think idea # 2 is perfect - just mirror it to Brit Tactical support ability essentially.
16 Apr 2019, 18:37 PM
#9
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 551

Supply Drop... I would like to see hull-down instead. Would fit better with Osttruppen. Also a Beute-T34 would be great as call-in instead of Supply Drop.
16 Apr 2019, 18:49 PM
#10
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 626



It's counterintuative for this game, you're encouraged to save your units for their experience but this ability is the other way around, please send 12 of your guys to die so you can get 2 squads of Osttruppen, like, why?


You're encouraged to keep squads alive. The ability goes by model count, so it's really just encouraging you to be aggressive, not necessarily suicidal.

The reward should just be a little better, and maybe it should be available earlier. The deployed Ostruppen should come with some equipment that regular Ostruppen don't have, similar to OPs 3rd suggestion

16 Apr 2019, 18:50 PM
#11
avatar of DerbyHat

Posts: 349 | Subs: 1

It would be nice if Ostruppen Reserves were equipped with entrenching tools (sandbags and such) and maybe have an option to upgrade AT Rifles and Light AT Mines to better fit defensive theme.


Entrenching tools are a nice idea, considering Osttruppen have it in other doctrines. You think they should still come with 2 squads if they get the option for AT rifles?


Honestly for Mechanized I think it would be cleanest to just give them the plain 250 HT ability from Infantry (or lock the group behind BP1 so it has same timing if you *really* want the combo).=


I've thought of this, but changing it to Infantry Doctrine's 250 would definitely make this the meta commander for Ostheer. It already has spotting scopes and the CP4, two of Ostheer's strongest abilities. I think the 250 should stay bundled with a squad at 2+ CP as to not overpower the commander.


For supply drop I think idea # 2 is perfect - just mirror it to Brit Tactical support ability essentially.


Agreed. I've abstained from voting myself, but this does seem like a logical solution.

Supply Drop... I would like to see hull-down instead. Would fit better with Osttruppen. Also a Beute-T34 would be great as call-in instead of Supply Drop.


Replacing it with a different ability would also be a good idea. The ability in its current form doesn't offer anything you can't already build yourself. I'm personally a fan of hulldown. Not sure how strong a beute-T34 would be for Ostheer, it atleast should be tied to tech 3.
16 Apr 2019, 18:53 PM
#12
avatar of Brick Top

Posts: 1034

Bought vet already got removed from all other commanders. Lowering CP and manpower cost would make the mech grens way more useful.

You could swap for PG 250, but I like it with grens in (so you can kite with it).
16 Apr 2019, 18:58 PM
#13
avatar of PARROT
Writer Badge

Posts: 13



Thumbs up for trying to come up with ideas on bringing practically non-existent stuff back in the game

+1
16 Apr 2019, 19:01 PM
#14
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 4742 | Subs: 1

Ostruppen reserves:
One could have them able to upgrade with Panzerbushe or PTRS creating unique units.

About the Relief Infantry/rapid conscription I would suggest getting a "new" squad Osttrupen/Frontaviki with target size 1 that can not reinforce but can use improve merge that heals 5 hp per model. This way it promotes aggressive play and it allow player to continue their push, without giving unwanted squads.

Mechanized Grenadier Group can be replaced by the 250 in infatry or have lower CP and come with a unique squad like Panzerfusiliers/Volkgrenadeir or the 6 mean repair squad from campaign.

Supply Drop could have CP lowered and have munition fuel remove so it can be cheaper. The HMG-34 should be replaced with HMG-42 since it is inferior.

One could also replace the pak with pak36 similar to M-42
16 Apr 2019, 19:02 PM
#15
avatar of DerbyHat

Posts: 349 | Subs: 1

Bought vet already got removed from all other commanders. Lowering CP and manpower cost would make the mech grens way more useful.


Tiger Ace will still have vet 1 next patch. :foreveralone:

You could swap for PG 250, but I like it with grens in (so you can kite with it).


If pgrens stay at HQ from the next patch on, it would probably make little difference. I think you'd already have an lmg gren at 2 CP anyway, tho (possibly with vet 2, so you'd swap em for more damage).
16 Apr 2019, 19:03 PM
#16
avatar of PARROT
Writer Badge

Posts: 13

Don't think Ive ever managed to make much use of Relief Ostruppen because I always try to preserve squads; particularly at 6CP its hoped they all have decent vet. For my two-penneth, call-in Ostruppen reserves would be much more useful.
16 Apr 2019, 19:21 PM
#17
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 2117 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Apr 2019, 19:03 PMPARROT
Don't think Ive ever managed to make much use of Relief Ostruppen because I always try to preserve squads; particularly at 6CP its hoped they all have decent vet. For my two-penneth, call-in Ostruppen reserves would be much more useful.

You don't have to lose the squad, just the models. It's niche but it's pretty handy if the enemy is arty happy since it gives you infantry that can hopefully survive without a wipe but also cheap crews for your weapon teams.
I certainly like the idea of the ability but it's a bit pricey.

Could try halving the cost and only grant max 1 squad to make it more accessible.
16 Apr 2019, 20:47 PM
#18
avatar of EtherealDragon

Posts: 1412 | Subs: 1



Entrenching tools are a nice idea, considering Osttruppen have it in other doctrines. You think they should still come with 2 squads if they get the option for AT rifles?


I think 2 squads would be fine with AT Rifles - AT Rifles alone are never super threatening and would merely be a LV deterrent as I imagine it in my head. If it's a little too powerful you could always disable Faust with AT Rifle upgrade so you can't snare and kill with cheap squads too easily. Would be a nice doctrinal alternative to the expensive PZ Gren Shreks for mobile AT I think.
16 Apr 2019, 20:54 PM
#19
avatar of EtherealDragon

Posts: 1412 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Apr 2019, 19:01 PMVipper


Mechanized Grenadier Group can be replaced by the 250 in infatry or have lower CP and come with a unique squad like Panzerfusiliers/Volkgrenadeir or the 6 mean repair squad from campaign.



I like the idea of a unique squad as the Mechanized Group - as it stands getting a vanilla Grenadier (even with "Free" LMG) isn't too exciting and as said above - comes too late and doesn't make sense delaying your build order just to get a 250 and Grenadier you could build from Tier 1 anyway. A unique squad would make it worth to make a build order that worked the Mechanized Group into it. Bonus points if the squad would promote combined arms light vehicle play to be thematic.
16 Apr 2019, 21:57 PM
#20
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 2117 | Subs: 1



I think 2 squads would be fine with AT Rifles - AT Rifles alone are never super threatening and would merely be a LV deterrent as I imagine it in my head. If it's a little too powerful you could always disable Faust with AT Rifle upgrade so you can't snare and kill with cheap squads too easily. Would be a nice doctrinal alternative to the expensive PZ Gren Shreks for mobile AT I think.

Pretty well need a snare for AT rifles or they will be pushed out of existence.
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