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russian armor

State of Tank Balance

How do you feel about the state of the tank balance?
Option Distribution Votes
22%
66%
12%
Total votes: 41
Vote VOTE! Vote ABSTAIN
8 Apr 2019, 01:41 AM
#1
avatar of Spades68

Posts: 14

LOOK AT THIS TABLE: List of all tank values HERE

I pieced together a table of the most current values of relevant tanks from all of the factions. I was hoping to stir up some dialog within the community here and see how people feel about the way the tank game plays out in the current meta.

Formula: Penetration/Armor * 100 = % chance to deal damage

Example w/Panther vs Pershing: Panther's penetration from far away is - 220, the Pershing's armor is 230, so the formula would be: 220/300 * 100 = 73% chance to deal damage.
_________________________________________________________________________________
My OPINION: The game's AT guns are in a fine state, but the cost to value ratio of the German armor compared to the allied armor is disproportionate. You would think the natural answer to tank inferiority is the use of AT guns, but the counter to team weapons is artillery. Fortunately the Axis powers have access to mobile artillery pieces that allow for hit & run type tactics, this in-turn leaves very few options to the Allied player to respond to having their vital AT guns hit with artillery:

  • Respond with some sort of flanking, hit & run tactic with their tanks. Doing this is risky, attempting to out maneuver your opponent with some sort of wide flank in hopes you track down his artillery piece before you hit a mine or become discovered is a less than ideal solution.
  • Counter artillery is the obvious answer, in order to keep your team weapons alive, you spit back from just as far away with the same tool, but there is a complication. Artillery is only really available to the Soviets non-doctrinally which leaves the USF and UKF is a poor state of affairs. The USF's pakhowitzer is a temporary short-range solution that suffers from decrewing problems (the UKF landmatress likewise) due to its lack of mobility such as a stuka or panzerwerfer.


All of this effort is towards the goal of maintaining your AT guns as an allied player so you are able to fend off the superior penetration and health values of the axis armor.

I spent some effort in making this table since I had to manually piece it together via the attribute database in the tools section of steam. I am starting to draw the conclusion that the panther is just a step above ridiculous when it comes to health, armor, penetration. The first counter to my conclusion is "its range is inferior to other tank destroyers". So lets compare the 60 range SU-85 vs the 50 range Panther. It is very possible the SU-85 will get the first shot off, but the difference between 10 range leaves no room for any sort of shot evasion tactic from the SU-85, so it is highly likely that if an SU-85 (far less maneuverable) engages a panther, 10 range does not decide if there are free hits being dished out. Now lets look at the amount of hits to destroy the opponent.

SU-85 dies in 4 hits (with a 157% chance to deal damage if hit by panther)
Panther dies in 6 hits (with an 84% chance to deal damage if hit by SU-85)

The next counter argument is that the SU-85 is a cheaper tank. The problem I take with this, is the game being about veterancy. Keeping your units alive, gaining XP, (panther gets increased armor with vet), and eventually overwhelming your opponent with the units you were able to preserve. This sort of dynamic between tanks offers the Axis a huge amount of breathing room in terms of cognitive awareness of the battlefield. Allowing an Axis player to recover from what would have been a non-micro blunder with a 50% more time to react window.

How about we just buy a bigger tank on the allied side. Well... that one is kind of complicated, there are some, with advantages and disadvantages, mainly doctrinal choices if you want to go bigger, and even then, you are limited to a single one of them, while the Axis player is free to spam as many 960HP panthers as they see fit and give them a modicum of anti-infantry with an MG-42 upgrade (Jackson's would die to have this).

I understand the game is supposed to be asymmetrically balanced, and it does occur to me that the Axis do not win every game. I am simply trying to better understand why things are the way they are, since I am inclined to draw conclusions from the raw data I see. I am also aware that veterancy and commander/vehicle abilities strongly influence the dynamics of tank combat.

TL/DR: I'll leave it at that, there are plenty of more tank match-ups that can be compared, and I encourage everyone to do so. I spent a lot of time piecing together this table manually, I hope you guys make some use of it. I am interested to hear your conclusions. Most surprisingly to me, was the sheer amount of vehicles that actually deal 160 damage!
8 Apr 2019, 01:51 AM
#2
avatar of Kommandant_Omi

Posts: 22

The only tank that really needs something done to is the ostwind imo
8 Apr 2019, 01:56 AM
#3
avatar of Outsider_Sidaroth

Posts: 1323 | Subs: 1

USF wise, it's really good, on virtue of their vehicle crews.
Pershing has low health but high lethality vs Infantry.
Jackson is a bit too strong, but it's the only stock TD.
Upgunned Sherman regular shells are only a minor upgrade from the Stock Sherman. (minor complain)
8 Apr 2019, 03:50 AM
#4
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 3047

USF wise, it's really good, on virtue of their vehicle crews.
Pershing has low health but high lethality vs Infantry.
Jackson is a bit too strong, but it's the only stock TD.
Upgunned Sherman regular shells are only a minor upgrade from the Stock Sherman. (minor complain)

+1 except that upgunned shermans are IMO significantly better at fighting armor than normal shermans. You have to remember that they reload really fast and you do have the HVAP or whatever it is if you really need the pen. The high firerate makes them excellent flankers and then you can fall back on HVAP for frontal engagements if you want. Honestly half the time if I have superior numbers I'll just pray to RNGesus and use the normal shells for the god tier reload time. Easily offensively the best regular medium (that dies in 4 hits).

@OP
Allies have powerful, reliable tank destroyers to counter axis armor. Allied mediums aren't really supposed to be fighting anything else but other mediums without support from TDs, infantry AT (which USF and brits have easy access to if you have the muni), or AT guns. The one thing I think is tough for Allies is that they have to dive and flank more often, and snares really punish diving. I don't even know if I would call that unbalanced. I tend to think bigger tanks are easier to use and preserve than multiple smaller ones, and axis has more access to larger, more armored tanks, but that's why Allies tend to have better infantry
8 Apr 2019, 04:35 AM
#5
avatar of KoRneY

Posts: 631

Sounds like, nerf panthers. I agree. Let the worthless axis scrape by on stugs and ostwinds.
8 Apr 2019, 06:08 AM
#6
avatar of Bananenheld

Posts: 1593 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post8 Apr 2019, 04:35 AMKoRneY
Sounds like, nerf panthers. I agree. Let the worthless axis scrape by on stugs and ostwinds.

Panther is too strong for beeing stock, i agree.
8 Apr 2019, 06:16 AM
#7
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1285


Panther is too strong for beeing stock, i agree.


But they do cost an arm and leg to field. 175 and 200 fuel. Most non doc mediums are around 120 fuel.

Panthers are not up imo unlike lots of people claim. Its not op imo, its just right imho. Its lacking ai and high fuel price are because how durable and fast and mobile it is.
8 Apr 2019, 06:28 AM
#8
avatar of Bananenheld

Posts: 1593 | Subs: 1



But they do cost an arm and leg to field. 175 and 200 fuel. Most non doc mediums are around 120 fuel.

Panthers are not up imo unlike lots of people claim. Its not op imo, its just right imho. Its lacking ai and high fuel price are because how durable and fast and mobile it is.


Panther has good ai dps because of hull and pintle mg. Ask some veteran forum users.
8 Apr 2019, 08:08 AM
#9
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3164 | Subs: 7

But they do cost an arm and leg to field. 175 and 200 fuel. Most non doc mediums are around 120 fuel.


Are you still living in 2017? Both Panthers are 185 fuel nowadays.
8 Apr 2019, 08:25 AM
#10
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13275 | Subs: 1

...
Formula: Penetration/Armor * 100 = % chance to deal damage
...

That is simply incorrect. You are assuming that the unit has scored a hit.

Chance to score a natural hit: accuracy* target size *100
Chance to score a collision hit estimated via test...
Chance to penetrate: Penetration/Armor *100

Chance to deal damage static:
(Chance to score a natural hit + Chance to score a collision hit) * Chance to penetrate

Chance to deal damage on the move:
(Chance to score a natural hit + Chance to score a collision hit) * Chance to penetrate


SU-85 dies in 4 hits (with a 157% chance to deal damage if hit by panther)
Panther dies in 6 hits (with an 84% chance to deal damage if hit by SU-85)

Now do the same and include accuracy.
Then do the same at vet 2 and vet 3
8 Apr 2019, 10:43 AM
#11
avatar of Grim

Posts: 1051

The Panther is a hard one. For team games 3v3/4v4 I would say it is OP yet in smaller game modes I can imagine it being more balanced due to fuel restrictions.

Other tanks that need looking at:

The Comet
IS2 (Tiger 1 too but not as much)
KT
KV1
AVRE/Sturmtiger to a lesser extent.

I personally dislike the Pershing but others like it so that one is a grey area.

8 Apr 2019, 10:48 AM
#12
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1285



Are you still living in 2017? Both Panthers are 185 fuel nowadays.


Ok thanks for the correction i didnt remember that.
8 Apr 2019, 11:32 AM
#13
avatar of SupremeStefan

Posts: 1201

jump backJump back to quoted post8 Apr 2019, 10:43 AMGrim
The Panther is a hard one. For team games 3v3/4v4 I would say it is OP yet in smaller game modes I can imagine it being more balanced due to fuel restrictions.

Panther in teamgames is definitly op. Imo Jackson is the only unit that saves alies in teamgames its strange for me that for some guys jackson is op when usf dont have nothing else stock for late game. But dont know how it looks in 1vs1.
8 Apr 2019, 11:46 AM
#14
avatar of Spades68

Posts: 14



Are you still living in 2017? Both Panthers are 185 fuel nowadays.


Are you able to view the table? It covers the costs of the vehicles. Just checking
8 Apr 2019, 11:49 AM
#15
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8



Are you able to view the table? It covers the costs of the vehicles. Just checking

Which table?
The one made over 2 years ago, in which some stats, like unit costs are irrelevant due to changes over last 2 years?
8 Apr 2019, 12:06 PM
#16
avatar of Spades68

Posts: 14


Which table?
The one made over 2 years ago, in which some stats, like unit costs are irrelevant due to changes over last 2 years?


The table at the beginning of the post that is linked in all capital letters "HERE"
8 Apr 2019, 12:08 PM
#17
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8

Got it, missed it.
8 Apr 2019, 12:12 PM
#18
avatar of Spades68

Posts: 14

Got it, missed it.


So it works? You can read it? Lol
8 Apr 2019, 13:36 PM
#19
avatar of Princeps

Posts: 214

LOOK AT THIS ....... 160 damage!


Most of this is BS.

U Know the difference between range and sight ?

in 99% the Su85 fires 3 shots before the Panther fires back. Selfspotting is a nice thing.


Axis Tanks get Buttf... by the allied 60 TD Meta and u want to tell us this isn´t happen ...



@SupremeStefan

Just no ... U have to use the Panther. Or u can fight P4 vs Jackson... :clap:
8 Apr 2019, 13:41 PM
#20
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8



Most of this is BS.

U Know the difference between range and sight ?

in 99% the Su85 fires 3 shots before the Panther fires back. Selfspotting is a nice thing.

You have to be stationary for 12 seconds with panther for that to be true....


Axis Tanks get Buttf... by the allied 60 TD Meta and u want to tell us this isn´t happen ...

Tank destroyers only purpose is to destroy tanks.
If you think that's a reason why tanks should be buffed, then you're insane.

Just no ... U have to use the Panther. Or u can fight P4 vs Jackson... :clap:

P4 easily beats jackson if it flanks it.

If you charge frontally against it, well, do you also charge your infantry against HMGs and expect a win?
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