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20 Apr 2019, 18:10 PM
#181
avatar of Sully

Posts: 390 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Apr 2019, 17:56 PMLago


That's like saying there's no point getting Shocks if you have Penals. They're both best at short range.


Nope. It'd be more like saying there is no point in getting G43 Pfuss if you have STG Volks, nice try though.

Shocks have 6 durable models, smoke grenades (utility), require zero teching, and come way earlier than Obers while their counters are sparse.
20 Apr 2019, 18:11 PM
#182
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Apr 2019, 16:20 PMSully


Better DPS numbers in riskier combat conditions does not make them better than LMGs, which you'd understand if you actually played the game. I'm going to pick the upgrade that does better DPS at long range, which also greatly reduces the risk of my expensive 4 man infantry squad from getting wiped on retreat.


Its CoH2, not DoW2, there are no warp spiders here kiting you indefinitely.
30 range OR LESS is regular engagement distance in CoH2, literally nothing outside of 4v4 a-move blobfests happens at max range and out of cover, where LMG34 is better, vast majority happen in ranges below 30 in cover vs cover situations, where IR StGs are uncontested winners.

Just because its automatic weapon, does not mean you need to shove the barrel up opponents ass for it to be effective.

You would understand that if you played the game AND understood what which weapon upgrades do.
20 Apr 2019, 18:25 PM
#183
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Apr 2019, 18:10 PMSully
Nope. It'd be more like saying there is no point in getting G43 Pfuss if you have STG Volks, nice try though.

Shocks have 6 durable models, smoke grenades (utility), require zero teching, and come way earlier than Obers while their counters are sparse.


This sounds like you're complaining about Obersoldaten themselves, not IR STGs vs LMGs.
20 Apr 2019, 18:29 PM
#184
avatar of Sully

Posts: 390 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Apr 2019, 18:11 PMKatitof

Its CoH2, not DoW2, there are no warp spiders here kiting you indefinitely.
30 range OR LESS is regular engagement distance in CoH2, literally nothing outside of 4v4 a-move blobfests happens at max range and out of cover, where LMG34 is better, vast majority happen in ranges below 30 in cover vs cover situations, where IR StGs are uncontested winners.

Just because its automatic weapon, does not mean you need to shove the barrel up opponents ass for it to be effective.

You would understand that if you played the game AND understood what which weapon upgrades do.


Forum warrior gonna forum warrior. Let me know when you play the game, until then your opinions are just noise.
20 Apr 2019, 18:34 PM
#185
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Apr 2019, 18:29 PMSully


Forum warrior gonna forum warrior. Let me know when you play the game, until then your opinions are just noise.

I like how the moment you're incapable of reasonably respond to value based arguments you go straight for ad-hominem.
20 Apr 2019, 18:34 PM
#186
avatar of Sully

Posts: 390 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Apr 2019, 18:25 PMLago


This sounds like you're complaining about Obersoldaten themselves, not IR STGs vs LMGs.


Obersoldaten timing certainly does not help the argument for the current state of IR STGs. Overhauling OKW teching isn't on the table, but IR STGs are.

Let me ask you this, do you actively think bundling the IR STG upgrade with smoke grenades and or camo would make them OP? If so, why?
20 Apr 2019, 18:37 PM
#187
avatar of Sully

Posts: 390 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Apr 2019, 18:34 PMKatitof

I like how the moment you're incapable of reasonably respond to value based arguments you go straight for ad-hominem.


Well there's the crux of it, I don't believe your arguments hold any value.
20 Apr 2019, 18:40 PM
#188
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Apr 2019, 18:34 PMSully
Obersoldaten timing certainly does not help the argument for the current state of IR STGs. Overhauling OKW teching isn't on the table, but IR STGs are.

Let me ask you this, do you actively think bundling the IR STG upgrade with smoke grenades and or camo would make them OP? If so, why?


I don't think it would.

But I also don't think "it wouldn't be OP" is a reason to do it. The command abilites on the WC51 aren't OP, but that doesn't make them not irritating clutter that shouldn't be there.
20 Apr 2019, 18:45 PM
#189
avatar of Sully

Posts: 390 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Apr 2019, 18:40 PMLago


I don't think it would.

But I also don't think "it wouldn't be OP" is a reason to do it. The command abilites on the WC51 aren't OP, but that doesn't make them not irritating clutter that shouldn't be there.


I appreciate the added insight into your argument. I guess that's the difference in our perspectives, I don't see added utility as irritating clutter; I see them as additional tools that help define/differentiate the unit's role.
20 Apr 2019, 18:59 PM
#190
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Apr 2019, 18:45 PMSully
I appreciate the added insight into your argument. I guess that's the difference in our perspectives, I don't see added utility as irritating clutter; I see them as additional tools that help define/differentiate the unit's role.


I have a very less-is-more attitude. Don't get me wrong, abilities are good, they add depth and make things interesting. It'd be a lesser game without them.

But if you overdo it, you add unnecessary complexity. You make the game harder to understand without making it better. Look at JLI: they're saturated with abilities, but how many actually get used?

Obersoldaten are late-game combat infantry to supplement Volks as they get outscaled and/or wiped. You've already got a whole army of moving parts on the field by then: the game doesn't lack for depth at that stage. There's nothing wrong with them being straightforward combat units.

They've already got a bundle grenade, a white phosphorous smoke grenade and booby traps. If they're not strong enough, I'd make them stronger before loading even more chaff onto them.
20 Apr 2019, 19:03 PM
#191
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Apr 2019, 18:37 PMSully


Well there's the crux of it, I don't believe your arguments hold any value.

Its not "my" argument, its undisputed numerical value FACTS based on in game statistics and interactions of mechanics.
I'm not making them up, I'm merely presenting them.

You being in utter denial and going full ad-hominem doesn't make them any less of a fact.
20 Apr 2019, 19:44 PM
#192
avatar of Geblobt

Posts: 213

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Apr 2019, 19:03 PMKatitof

Its not "my" argument, its undisputed numerical value FACTS based on in game statistics and interactions of mechanics.
I'm not making them up, I'm merely presenting them.

You being in utter denial and going full ad-hominem doesn't make them any less of a fact.



Its CoH2, not DoW2, there are no warp spiders here kiting you indefinitely.
30 range OR LESS is regular engagement distance in CoH2, literally nothing outside of 4v4 a-move blobfests happens at max range and out of cover, where LMG34 is better, vast majority happen in ranges below 30 in cover vs cover situations, where IR StGs are uncontested winners.

Just because its automatic weapon, does not mean you need to shove the barrel up opponents ass for it to be effective.

You would understand that if you played the game AND understood what which weapon upgrades do.


At range 30 and with heavy cover a lmg Ober squad will deal more dmg than a stg ober squad. And you discount that the mid range from lmg obers ends at 28 units, while stg44 obers are far range since 16 units. So lmg obers have a accuracy advantage between 16 and 28 (compared to <16 range).
The usage of stg obers is in my opinion inefficient. They bleed more than stg volks or g43 pfs, are easier to wipe and still lose vs rangers, cav rifle or shocks in small range engagements. Obers are at their strongest point when they can fight with some meatshield and when they are not in range for medium vehicles or explosives.
For what reason should i go for vet 0 stg obers when i already have some vet2/3 g43 pfs, who can win most mid range engagements? This weapon upgrade makes no sense in my opinion as long as volks get free stgs.
20 Apr 2019, 19:45 PM
#193
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Apr 2019, 19:44 PMGeblobt




At range 30 and with heavy cover a lmg Ober squad will deal more dmg than a stg ober squad. And you discount that the mid range from lmg obers ends at 28 units, while stg44 obers are far range since 16 units. So lmg obers have a accuracy advantage between 16 and 28 (compared to <16 range).
The usage of stg obers is in my opinion inefficient. They bleed more than stg volks or g43 pfs, are easier to wipe and still lose vs rangers, cav rifle or shocks in small range engagements. Obers are at their strongest point when they can fight with some meatshield and when they are not in range for medium vehicles or explosives.
For what reason should i go for vet 0 stg obers when i already have some vet2/3 g43 pfs, who can win most mid range engagements? This weapon upgrade makes no sense in my opinion as long as volks get free stgs.




IR STG 44s have almost as much DPS as the LMG 34 at range 30 against units in cover (12,88 dps vs 13,45 dps at range 30). Below range ~25 they are better and below range ~15 they are way better. On the move they are much better. They are cheaper and they synergize way better with aggressive tank play. They are much better against Allied CQC infantry trying to close in. They will even beat Rangers quite easily.

I don't think they need anything else.

20 Apr 2019, 19:54 PM
#194
avatar of Geblobt

Posts: 213

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Apr 2019, 19:45 PMKatitof



But why should i even get in that range with obers?
I can just chill with lmg obers. And let my volks do their job. I see not one argument why i should use stg obers instead of stg volks or pfs.
20 Apr 2019, 19:58 PM
#195
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Apr 2019, 19:44 PMGeblobt
stg obers still lose vs rangers, cav rifle or shocks in small range engagements


Unless they are ambushed around a corner, IR STG44 Obers shred everything including Rangers (highest close range DPS squad in the game) because they have high mid range DPS on top of their high close range DPS. Rangers running into IR STG44 Obers lose decidedly with usually two Obers models left standing, Shocks decidedly lose too and Cavalry Riflemen will be lucky to drop more than one Ober model. LMG Obers generally lose to charging Shocks and Rangers.

IR STG44 Obers become especially useful in late game when moon landscape gives the entire map yellow cover, which IR STG44s mostly ignore.
20 Apr 2019, 19:58 PM
#196
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Apr 2019, 19:54 PMGeblobt
But why should i even get in that range with obers?
I can just chill with lmg obers. And let my volks do their job. I see not one argument why i should use stg obers instead of stg volks or pfs.


Because STG Obers deal a shit-ton more damage.

It's like comparing Assault Engineers and Rangers.
20 Apr 2019, 20:01 PM
#197
avatar of Geblobt

Posts: 213

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Apr 2019, 19:58 PMLago


Because STG Obers deal a shit-ton more damage.

Your point? The same thing do lmg obers. Without a doc and without the risk of an easy wipe.
20 Apr 2019, 20:06 PM
#198
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Apr 2019, 19:54 PMGeblobt

But why should i even get in that range with obers?
I can just chill with lmg obers. And let my volks do their job. I see not one argument why i should use stg obers instead of stg volks or pfs.


Because cover is a thing in this game and its extremely rare to have 2 cover pieces apart more then 30 range unless you specifically build sandbags for yourself and opponent at distance of 35 and cover below 30 range will mean LMG obers are inferior to STG ones?
20 Apr 2019, 20:07 PM
#199
avatar of Butcher

Posts: 1217

The biggest flaw of the Ober StG44 upgrade is that if you lose a model you lose a quarter of your firepower compared to keepin most of your firepower when having the MG34 equipped. That being said I hardly use the StG44 on Obers.

That being said: Sully is completely right that having to expose your Ober StG44 squad to enemy fire since the range is shorter than on the MG34, really impacts the utility of the upgrade.
20 Apr 2019, 20:08 PM
#200
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Apr 2019, 20:07 PMButcher
The biggest flaw of the Ober StG44 upgrade is that if you lose a model you lose a quarter of your firepower compared to keepin most of your firepower when having the MG34 equipped. That being said I hardly use the StG44 on Obers.


You really don't use them much if you don't even know its TWO StGs only, meaning you lose exactly as much DPS as with LMG until 2 models are left and if you continue the fight at 2 men and down to 1, you're asking to be wiped anyway.
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