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New Commander Info: Creator Proposals and Discussion

13 Mar 2019, 15:28 PM
#1
avatar of Jackiebrown

Posts: 646

Commanders that won the poll

OKW: Grand Offensive Doctrine

Brits: Lend Lease Assault Regiment

USF: Urban Assault Company

Wehr: Strategic Tank Reserves Doctrine

Soviets: Soviet Airborne Tactics

Poll Results: https://www.surveymonkey.com/stories/SM-YPD6DQDL/?fbclid=IwAR0z1xZtxICfMjkGGexk6GaoGPTK3nfLWrrop2oKwxryqSNCtYCIlDpujYQ


Info on Commanders, ability lineup proposed by creators:


OKW: Grand Offensive Doctrine
Proposal by our own Kpen97

https://www.coh2.org/topic/85213/new-commander-submission-okw/post/719175





Brits: Lend Lease Assault Regiment
Proposals by our own A.Soldier, Lago, and RoastinGhost

A.Soldier's Proposal- https://www.coh2.org/topic/85215/new-commander-submission-brits/post/719103



Lago's Proposal- https://www.coh2.org/topic/85215/new-commander-submission-brits/post/719155



Roastin Ghost's Proposal- https://www.coh2.org/topic/85215/new-commander-submission-brits/post/719365





USF: Urban Assault Company
Proposals by companyofheroes.com's nkirkpat, C3Tooth, crexas, and Panzerfutz

mkirkpat's Proposal more ideas on linked page- https://community.companyofheroes.com/discussion/245243/new-usf-commander-ideas#latest



C3Tooth's Proposal (post #8)- https://community.companyofheroes.com/discussion/245597/usf-new-commander-proposals/p1



crexas' Proposal (post #23)- https://community.companyofheroes.com/discussion/245597/usf-new-commander-proposals/p1



Panzerfutz's Proposal more ideas on linked page- https://community.companyofheroes.com/discussion/245677/usf-new-commander-proposals-i-like#latest






Wehr: Strategic Tank Reserves Doctrine
Proposal by our own Smartie

https://www.coh2.org/topic/85211/new-commander-submission-wehrmacht/post/719682






Soviets: Soviet Airborne Tactics
Proposal by our own Midnight'sBlade

https://www.coh2.org/topic/85212/new-commander-submission-soviets/post/719218

13 Mar 2019, 15:29 PM
#2
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 4175 | Subs: 1

thanks can you pls add spoiler with only the suggested abilities?
13 Mar 2019, 15:33 PM
#3
avatar of aerafield

Posts: 1386

About Kpen's proposal I think it would be the best if it had a normal Tiger call-in that gets buffed for Ostheer as well.

No more command tank cheese pls
13 Mar 2019, 15:33 PM
#4
avatar of Jackiebrown

Posts: 646

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Mar 2019, 15:29 PMVipper
thanks can you pls add spoiler with only the suggested abilities?


yep
ddd
13 Mar 2019, 15:41 PM
#5
avatar of ddd

Posts: 144

About Kpen's proposal I think it would be the best if it had a normal Tiger call-in that gets buffed for Ostheer as well.

No more command tank cheese pls


Any reason why tiger out of all heavy tanks should be buffed? For both axis factions even.
13 Mar 2019, 15:53 PM
#6
avatar of aerafield

Posts: 1386

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Mar 2019, 15:41 PMddd


Any reason why tiger out of all heavy tanks should be buffed? For both axis factions even.


cuz Tiger sucks hard compared to all of them? Maybe the KT is on same level of "badness" but at least the KT has way better armor
ddd
13 Mar 2019, 16:09 PM
#7
avatar of ddd

Posts: 144



cuz Tiger sucks hard compared to all of them? Maybe the KT is on same level of "badness" but at least the KT has way better armor


Funny, because when i spectate top level 1v1 games im seeing more tigers than pershings. Then is the case of tiger commanders being much stronger then heavy cav (both panzer tactician and stuka cas synergize insanely well with tiger) and i fail to see how tiger is weaker then pershing and requires buffs more.
13 Mar 2019, 16:09 PM
#8
avatar of nigo
Senior Editor Badge

Posts: 1973 | Subs: 16

Panzer 2 for Wehr commander: Strategic Tank Reserves Doctrine.
13 Mar 2019, 16:32 PM
#9
avatar of Smartie

Posts: 205

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Mar 2019, 16:09 PMnigo
Panzer 2 for Wehr commander: Strategic Tank Reserves Doctrine.


I also thought about making Panzer II available. The unit would fit to the theme and would give this Wehrmacht commander a unique unit. The question is if the Luchs would have a real role: 222 does the same job but is 30 fuel cheaper. Why build a Luchs that comes a lot later?
But the idea itself is interesting, feedback of players would be really appreciated here. Would they prefer a Luchs or a better PZ IV?

13 Mar 2019, 16:47 PM
#10
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 1027

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Mar 2019, 16:09 PMddd
Funny, because when i spectate top level 1v1 games im seeing more tigers than pershings. Then is the case of tiger commanders being much stronger then heavy cav (both panzer tactician and stuka cas synergize insanely well with tiger) and i fail to see how tiger is weaker then pershing and requires buffs more.


The fact that the Tiger has a decent role in 1v1 by being a tech-less call-in does not mean the unit itself is any good. It's mediocre at best. Especially in team games it rather sucks because beyond its fairly good gun it has nothing that a heavy tank needs - no speed, no armor, no HP pool. It gets bullied by TDs very easily unless it's an urban map.
ddd
13 Mar 2019, 17:02 PM
#11
avatar of ddd

Posts: 144



The fact that the Tiger has a decent role in 1v1 by being a tech-less call-in does not mean the unit itself is any good. It's mediocre at best. Especially in team games it rather sucks because beyond its fairly good gun it has nothing that a heavy tank needs - no speed, no armor, no HP pool. It gets bullied by TDs very easily unless it's an urban map.


The original statement was that tiger and k tiger are worst heavy tanks. I was asking how is tiger worse then pershing and how is tiger deserving buffs over pershing. You say that tiger has bad armor, no speed, no HP pool. Tiger has better HP than pershing, same armor and worse speed. You also say that tiger is escpecialy bad in team games, is it as bad as 800HP pershing "HEAVY" (lol) tank? Do you want tiger to be better than pershing in every single aspect for the same price? Or should we buff pershing too so it doesnt get left behind? Are we going to revive "stall for heavy call in" meta?
13 Mar 2019, 17:38 PM
#12
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 4175 | Subs: 1

it not the tiger that needs a buff its the allied TDs that need a nerf.
13 Mar 2019, 18:04 PM
#13
avatar of WingZero

Posts: 1176

About Kpen's proposal I think it would be the best if it had a normal Tiger call-in that gets buffed for Ostheer as well.

No more command tank cheese pls


Yea I agree with this. The command tank cheese is even worse in 3 v 3 and 4 v 4s.
13 Mar 2019, 18:06 PM
#14
avatar of Smartie

Posts: 205

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Mar 2019, 17:02 PMddd


The original statement was that tiger and k tiger are worst heavy tanks. I was asking how is tiger worse then pershing and how is tiger deserving buffs over pershing. You say that tiger has bad armor, no speed, no HP pool. Tiger has better HP than pershing, same armor and worse speed. You also say that tiger is escpecialy bad in team games, is it as bad as 800HP pershing "HEAVY" (lol) tank? Do you want tiger to be better than pershing in every single aspect for the same price? Or should we buff pershing too so it doesnt get left behind? Are we going to revive "stall for heavy call in" meta?


Maybe you should consider that the Pershing is a whiping machine and doesnt have to face TDs with a range of 60.Axis teams need elephant or JT to counter allied TD's, that means that Tiger doctrines get barely picked.
But in general don't you think that we can all agree that nearly all heavy tanks somehow underperform in terms of cost efficiency? Im speaking of Tiger I,Tiger Ace, KT, Pershing and JS2.
13 Mar 2019, 18:12 PM
#15
avatar of EtherealDragon

Posts: 1364 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Mar 2019, 16:32 PMSmartie


feedback of players would be really appreciated here. Would they prefer a Luchs or a better PZ IV?

Personally I'd much rather have the PZ4 - having an easier time tangling with premium mediums is just too good to pass up. Regarding the reworked Tiger Ace I would say that if it ends up having an Aura then it shouldn't get any veterancy (like the Sturm Officer) I feel like it should either be combat oriented or support oriented (aura, smoke launchers, etc.) but not both so that it's not OP. I suppose another option would be to have a timed abilities like KV8 inspire Vet 1.
ddd
13 Mar 2019, 18:18 PM
#16
avatar of ddd

Posts: 144

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Mar 2019, 18:06 PMSmartie


Maybe you should consider that the Pershing is a whiping machine and doesnt have to face TDs with a range of 60.Axis teams need elephant or JT to counter allied TD's, that means that Tiger doctrines get barely picked.
But in general don't you think that we can all agree that nearly all heavy tanks somehow underperform in terms of cost efficiency? Im speaking of Tiger I,Tiger Ace, KT, Pershing and JS2.


There is non doctrinal axis tank destroyer with range of 60 (jp4, not sure about stug). I agree that pershing is a squishy squad wiping machine, completly different from what it was in real life. It doesnt make it better than tiger tho. In fact usf would make great use of some durable tank instead of another squishy squad wiper (there is sherman 75mm already, why did they chose to make pershing into this, i dont know...).

Tiger gets barely picked IN TEAM GAMES because jager armor doctrine is overshadowing every other doctrine from every faction. Tiger is not rare in 1v1, lightning war doctrine is popular pick in 1v1.

I cant agree on buffing heavy tanks as long as they are tech-free. You are estabilishing yourself some nice lead with resources, get fast medium tank and try to make some moves with it only for enemy to suddenly get fast command points (from your medium tank doing some work) and deploying heavy tank without teching. Its lame and it rewards shitty overly defensive playstyle. And im talking here about axis and allies (is2, kv2, cpanther, tiger, croc, pershing). I dont understand why heavy tanks are not tied to tech yet.
13 Mar 2019, 18:31 PM
#17
avatar of drakenation

Posts: 7

The OKW Grand Offensive commander is pretty ridiculous. It will make tanks easily able to counter tank destroyers, their hard counter. I can only imagine the giant cheese of blitzkrieging, HEAT shell shooting, aura buffed heavy tanks rushing allied armor.

Thus, my suggestions are:
> Remove the blitzkrieg ability from the offensive package. Most tanks already have it as a vet ability anyway.
> Remove the commander aura from Tiger, just a common Tiger is good enough.
> Trade the HEAT shells for the Breakthrough's Assault Artillery or Luftwaffe's Valiant Assault. This will make the doctrine more offensive oriented while keeping the HEAT shells exclusive of the Elite Armor commander (which it should be, since it's such a strong ability).
13 Mar 2019, 18:51 PM
#18
avatar of Smartie

Posts: 205

The OKW Grand Offensive commander is pretty ridiculous. It will make tanks easily able to counter tank destroyers, their hard counter. I can only imagine the giant cheese of blitzkrieging, HEAT shell shooting, aura buffed heavy tanks rushing allied armor.

Thus, my suggestions are:
> Remove the blitzkrieg ability from the offensive package. Most tanks already have it as a vet ability anyway.
> Remove the commander aura from Tiger, just a common Tiger is good enough.
> Trade the HEAT shells for the Breakthrough's Assault Artillery or Luftwaffe's Valiant Assault. This will make the doctrine more offensive oriented while keeping the HEAT shells exclusive of the Elite Armor commander (which it should be, since it's such a strong ability).


I nearly agree with everything you wrote:
I really like your idea of replacing HEAT shells with Breakthrough's Assault Artillery, Off map arty with shells and smoke would fit a lot better to the theme of the doctrine.
I also dont want to see HEAT shells in an other OKW commander because players will have even less incentives to chose Elite Armor if this ability is available in a probably better doctrine.

The only reason for not putting in Assault Artillery in the new OKW doctrine is the similarity between Breakthrough and Grand Offensive: Both would have Panzerfüssies and Assault Artillery.

But lets face it: Breakthrough and Grand Offensive are nearly identical themes. I say: Lets make Grand Offensive the good version of Breakthrough. Breakthrough will include the JT and reworked AT Panzerfüssies after the patch and will be -somehow- OKW's AT commander. Doctrine should be renamed then and if possible get a revamp with Firestorm in the future.


I also dont want to see HEAT shells in an other OKW commander because players will not have even less incentives to chose Elite Armor if this ability is available in a probably better doctrine.
The
13 Mar 2019, 18:54 PM
#19
avatar of Lago

Posts: 1319

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Mar 2019, 16:32 PMSmartie
I also thought about making Panzer II available. The unit would fit to the theme and would give this Wehrmacht commander a unique unit. The question is if the Luchs would have a real role: 222 does the same job but is 30 fuel cheaper. Why build a Luchs that comes a lot later?

But the idea itself is interesting, feedback of players would be really appreciated here. Would they prefer a Luchs or a better PZ IV?


If you're throwing down 60 FU as OST, would you rather:
  • Luchs?
  • 444?
  • 222 + Flamer HT?

An OST Luchs would probably need some sort of trick to be worth it. Like a Command Luchs with Mark Target, Panzer Tactician and Recon Mode or something.



As for the OKW P4, that could get visually confusing at Vet 2 when it becomes identical to its OST counterpart.

What if it was an upgrade for the existing tanks?

Elite Armour Upgrade
  • Costs 45 FU, mutually exclusive with MG42 mount.
  • Available for the Panzer IV, Panther and StuG.
  • Adds the OKW Panzer Commander, granting the artillery call-in and bonus accuracy.
  • Unlocks Vet 2 armour skirts immediately.
  • Adds vehicle crew repair (same as OKW) to Vet 2 to replace the armour bonus.
13 Mar 2019, 19:01 PM
#20
avatar of Smartie

Posts: 205

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Mar 2019, 18:54 PMLago


As for the OKW P4, that could get visually confusing at Vet 2 when it becomes identical to its OST counterpart.

What if it was an upgrade for the existing tanks?

Elite Armour Upgrade
  • Costs 45 FU, mutually exclusive with MG42 mount.
  • Available for the Panzer IV, Panther and StuG.
  • Adds the OKW Panzer Commander, granting the artillery call-in and bonus accuracy.
  • Unlocks Vet 2 armour skirts immediately.
  • Adds vehicle crew repair (same as OKW) to Vet 2 to replace the armour bonus.


I agree about the Luchs and i really like your idea of Elite Armour Upgrade. You could merge it with Extra Training to "Extra training and equipment". That would free a commander slot for Assault grenadiers.
The idea behind the OKW PZIV was to give Wehrmacht a medium that can fight T34/85. This objective would be fully fulfilled with your idea and other tanks would profit also.

Edit:
@Ethereal Dragon: About Tiger Ace
I know that my suggested Tiger Ace is probably too strong (it is). I just wanted to lay the ground for a constructive discussion and if i look at your post i would say it paid off:) Really good suggestions, im really looking forward to the official feedback process. If guys like yourself, Lago, Stark and others will continue to give this kind of feedback Wehrmacht players will get a relly good commander.
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