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russian armor

Received Accuracy for OKW JLI and USF Pathfinder

21 Feb 2019, 09:07 AM
#41
avatar of Fire and Terror

Posts: 303

it isnt enough to look at the sqads in general, but to lock at the sqads they are fighting. Pathfinders are fighting mostly longrange infantry in the ealry game (volks and grens) making them perform good even without higher RA bonuses, while JLI fight mostly more CQC infantry. Brits is another story though and might be looked into. The fact that JLI rifle ignoeres cover might be problematic for brits.


EDIT: Peaple forgot to mention the fact that Patfinders can equic 2 weapons which can be a problem in longer games (normal pathfinder can become weapon pinatas but Reacon ones tend to perform very well)


Not to forget the +20% range on vet 3.

Therefore a 1 to 1 comparsion isnt helpfull at all
21 Feb 2019, 09:35 AM
#42
avatar of SeductiveCardbordBox

Posts: 591 | Subs: 1

Sorry, but 'the game is nuanced so you can't compare' is a sorry excuse.

Plus, RA bonuses apply the same way at any range. A 50% RA bonus at 35 range is no better or worse than a 50% RA bonus at 15. And JLI get a range bonus too, though IIRC it's also 13%

So practically speaking maybe a meter or two less than pathfinders. But they also sprint, lay charges, salvage, are harder to hit, etc.
21 Feb 2019, 09:39 AM
#43
avatar of Bananenheld

Posts: 1593 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Feb 2019, 08:25 AMKatitof

Average number of squad members for axis is 5(sooooo many volks).
Average number of squad members for allies is 5 as well, because soviets are not the only allied faction in game.

Both snipers shoot often at 4 and 6 man squads.
Also, both snipers were normalized long time ago and shoot pretty much just as often.

And yes, you SHOULD include scoped G43, because squad is NOT meant to be used without it, its gated behind upgrade to keep the squad cheap mp-wise and to not allow quick stacking of potent AI weapons as scoped G43s and volk STGs are brutal combination.

Playing against ostheer has an average of 5 Models per squad? Lolwut?
21 Feb 2019, 09:47 AM
#44
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17628 | Subs: 9


Playing against ostheer has an average of 5 Models per squad? Lolwut?

When was last time you've played?
You are aware that grens and pios can get 5 man now and while its not most popular doctrine at top play, it is quite popular below that, there are also osttruppen and assgrens, you may not like it, but its there.
21 Feb 2019, 09:54 AM
#45
avatar of SeductiveCardbordBox

Posts: 591 | Subs: 1

Plus arty officers, and volks, and fusis, and ostruppen.

Axis wide, there is no shortage of 5 and 6 man squads for allies to engage, these days.

The days of 'you need to scale everything as if allies have 50% more men' are a bit of a bygone era. With RA being what it is it was never a great comparison anyway.
21 Feb 2019, 10:37 AM
#46
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13365 | Subs: 1

Imo all this thread miss some crucial points.

The latest Reckon revamp once more proved that timing is an essential factor. By making the units of this commander available earlier, an average commander become OP and had to be nerfed.

So Imo what people should be focusing on is weather this powerful units should be available so early in the game?

In addition should these units come with weapons that are superior to mainline's infantry weapons with no tech?

Imo unit available before minute one should be balanced around mainline infantry like grenadier. If the are to be superior, that should be done via upgrade preferably locked behind tech.
21 Feb 2019, 10:39 AM
#47
avatar of Bananenheld

Posts: 1593 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Feb 2019, 09:47 AMKatitof

When was last time you've played?
You are aware that grens and pios can get 5 man now and while its not most popular doctrine at top play, it is quite popular below that, there are also osttruppen and assgrens, you may not like it, but its there.

So, on average, ostheer is fielding 5 man squads in a regular game?
Come on, you can do better.
21 Feb 2019, 12:40 PM
#48
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17628 | Subs: 9


So, on average, ostheer is fielding 5 man squads in a regular game?
Come on, you can do better.

Well, its not really relevant, sov sniper got 1 man short and got RoF equalized with ost sniper, both fight 4 to 6 man squads.
21 Feb 2019, 12:41 PM
#49
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279


So, on average, ostheer is fielding 5 man squads in a regular game?
Come on, you can do better.

Its a possibility. Ostheer can now field 5 man squads, if they fear model bursting they can make plans accordingly, the small squad sizes is faction design which is made up for by condensed DPS and good RA. Is the object to simply not let there be any form of AI at all ever because Ost has 4 man squad's? Then what when they do field 5 man squads? What about volks? Or God forbid they bring out a 6 man squad!
Things should be balanced around 5 man squads, no more and no less as that is the average when considering all factions (Soviet balance out wehr and the rest have plenty of access to 5 man squads). Soviet are more durable and ostheer is more fragile - by design.
21 Feb 2019, 12:51 PM
#50
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13365 | Subs: 1


....
Things should be balanced around 5 man squads, no more and no less as that is the average when considering all factions (Soviet balance out wehr and the rest have plenty of access to 5 man squads). Soviet are more durable and ostheer is more fragile - by design.

Actually no, allied faction should be balanced around Ostheer that should be used as benchmark. OKW should then be balanced accordingly to allied factions.
21 Feb 2019, 14:26 PM
#51
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Feb 2019, 09:47 AMKatitof

When was last time you've played?
You are aware that grens and pios can get 5 man now and while its not most popular doctrine at top play, it is quite popular below that, there are also osttruppen and assgrens, you may not like it, but its there.
no 1 doc doesn't change anything the average is still 4, for allied is 5 even for call in units
21 Feb 2019, 16:46 PM
#52
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

no 1 doc doesn't change anything the average is still 4, for allied is 5 even for call in units


With the amount of people playing OKW and skipping OH, it's closer to 5 :P
21 Feb 2019, 20:54 PM
#53
avatar of addvaluejack

Posts: 261



With the amount of people playing OKW and skipping OH, it's closer to 5 :P


(5(Volks)*3 + 4(Sturmpion) + 4(JLI) + 4(Ober))/6 = 4.5

If we include Ost, the number should be closer to 4 instead of 5.
21 Feb 2019, 21:48 PM
#54
avatar of SeductiveCardbordBox

Posts: 591 | Subs: 1

It's a tangent, but Ostruppen have made a resurgence lately, now they get an MG... they have to throw the average up closer to 5! They arrive in the dozens, after all.
22 Feb 2019, 03:07 AM
#55
avatar of Flyingsmonster

Posts: 155

All of these patches to fix JLI and they still haven't fixed the core issue of the unit; it's insane accuracy and critical hit rate. That is what needed to be addressed. Were they too cheap at 250mp? Yes. Was it fixed? Yes. Did they spawn to quickly? Yes. It was fixed. They also decided to remove infiltration, I get it, but again, doesn't address the real issue that's plaguing this unit. This is why we still haven't seen a reduction in players using overwatch, or using JLI, because despite the nerfs they are still essentially a better pathfinder in every way for 10mp less, only difference is they come out later. They also still cloak instantly over any bump in the terrain and get their accuracy ambush camouflage bonus from it.

They honestly could have kept them with the abilities they had before, with maybe a price buff and just reduced their accuracy / critical hit stats and everything would have been fine.

I wouldn't have even cared if they kept infiltration or the spawn time if they had simply brought them in line with other similar units instead of allowing them to be ultra lethal as they still are now.
22 Feb 2019, 10:57 AM
#56
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13365 | Subs: 1

...they are still essentially a better pathfinder in every way for 10mp less, only difference is they come out later....

Although JLI might not be in the right post the comparison is rather misleading.

JLI is a 280 unit at CP 1 with 4 grenadier K98 and good target size.
IR&Pathfinders is a 290 at CP 0 that comes with 3 elite carbines and 1 scope rifle.

The scoped G43 although very effective cost the same as a BAR and razes the cost of the units to 280/60mu and requires tech that makes it comes allot later than the "scoped" rifle.

In addition Pathfinder Xp value seem to be too low and the unit vets very fast.

There is problem with units that can critical kill especially when there allot of them.

Imo these unit should come without the scoped weapon that should be further delayed. That can be achieved by either more tech restrictions or by vet restrictions.
22 Feb 2019, 12:30 PM
#57
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3164 | Subs: 7

JLI currently are 35MP to reinforce (though not intended) which makes them hella expensive to maintain compared to Pathfinders.
22 Feb 2019, 12:44 PM
#58
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474

All of these patches to fix JLI and they still haven't fixed the core issue of the unit; it's insane accuracy and critical hit rate. That is what needed to be addressed. Were they too cheap at 250mp? Yes. Was it fixed? Yes. Did they spawn to quickly? Yes. It was fixed. They also decided to remove infiltration, I get it, but again, doesn't address the real issue that's plaguing this unit. This is why we still haven't seen a reduction in players using overwatch, or using JLI, because despite the nerfs they are still essentially a better pathfinder in every way for 10mp less, only difference is they come out later. They also still cloak instantly over any bump in the terrain and get their accuracy ambush camouflage bonus from it.

They honestly could have kept them with the abilities they had before, with maybe a price buff and just reduced their accuracy / critical hit stats and everything would have been fine.

I wouldn't have even cared if they kept infiltration or the spawn time if they had simply brought them in line with other similar units instead of allowing them to be ultra lethal as they still are now.
nah pathfinder have better dps and can get bars
22 Feb 2019, 16:29 PM
#59
avatar of Outsider_Sidaroth

Posts: 1323 | Subs: 1

Getting BARs in Airborne Pathfinders is a sure way to donate them to the Germans.
And who uses I&Rs anymore after they nerfed RS so damn hard?
22 Feb 2019, 17:21 PM
#60
avatar of SeductiveCardbordBox

Posts: 591 | Subs: 1

nah pathfinder have better dps and can get bars


That only matters if you are firing against a kubelwagen/WC51

The higher snipe point and cover ignoring mean that JLI get kills much faster and their effective DPS accounting for crits is through the roof.

And then they ALSO get be to twicw as hard to kill, and sprint, and grenade volley, etc. Etc.
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