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Ostheer MG/Early

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17 Feb 2019, 18:57 PM
#61
avatar of SeductiveCardbordBox

Posts: 591 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Feb 2019, 18:40 PMSerrith
Double bar rifles do outperform the mentioned units even with upgrades just as he said. -again with exception of lmg obers at long range only.


They are on par with Fusiliers and the G43, obers outpreform them medium to long range, MG42 grens outpreform them at medium to long range.

Fallschirms beat them at all ranges.
17 Feb 2019, 22:12 PM
#62
avatar of IncendiaryRounds:)

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They are on par with Fusiliers and the G43, obers outpreform them medium to long range, MG42 grens outpreform them at medium to long range.

Fallschirms beat them at all ranges.


Yes, your right, at max range the g43 pzerfusiliers are on par, but they're doctrinal, arrive at cp2, cost 10mp more but 30 munis less so they actually cost similarly to double bar riflemen. LOL, lmg42 grens outperform DOUBLE bar riflemen at medium range??!!! You'll be very lucky to even match up against double bar rifles at max range let alone medium range. If lmg grens match double bar riflemen at midrange, nobody would bother getting a microintensive hmg42.
17 Feb 2019, 22:22 PM
#63
avatar of IncendiaryRounds:)

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Gotta love how his argument keeps going back to "Double BAR Riflemen!".


Why don't u just play Ost and get 3-4 grens without an mg and face off against a few riflemen. You'll quickly understand how cost inefficient grens are against riflemen. Without a mg supporting, riflemen are free to charge grens and take advantage of dps twice that of grens at point blank while costing only 17% more.
17 Feb 2019, 23:26 PM
#65
avatar of Outsider_Sidaroth

Posts: 1323 | Subs: 1



Why don't u just play Ost and get 3-4 grens without an mg and face off against a few riflemen. You'll quickly understand how cost inefficient grens are against riflemen. Without a mg supporting, riflemen are free to charge grens and take advantage of dps twice that of grens at point blank while costing only 17% more.


Something tells me that wouldn't go as well as you think.

My USF experience tells me, Grens can chill in cover and pick Riflemen as they approach, if you can close in without taking damage then you will feel the reward of your extra 40 MP.
It's hard to be cost inefficient when you are cheaper.
17 Feb 2019, 23:57 PM
#66
avatar of SeductiveCardbordBox

Posts: 591 | Subs: 1

Yes, your right, at max range the g43 pzerfusiliers are on par, but they're doctrinal, arrive at cp2, cost 10mp more but 30 munis less so they actually cost similarly to double bar riflemen. LOL, lmg42 grens outperform DOUBLE bar riflemen at medium range??!!! You'll be very lucky to even match up against double bar rifles at max range let alone medium range. If lmg grens match double bar riflemen at midrange, nobody would bother getting a microintensive hmg42.


This isn't me joking around. The LMG is a long range weapon with a very low dropoff. The LMG grens lose handily at close range but match at 20-25 and from 25+ they preform better.

G43's also more or less match double BAR rifles at all ranges. They're a little less dps across the board, but come with no weapon drops chance and a 6th man for slower damage depreciation.

Not to mention that 2cp for Fusi's is absolutely on par with, approximately, the earliest that any USF player is going to have teched for BARs and also had the 120 muni to double upgrade a single squad. Double bar rifles are A) not as good as you profess and B) not on the field for quite some time.
18 Feb 2019, 00:15 AM
#67
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279



Why don't u just play Ost and get 3-4 grens without an mg and face off against a few riflemen. You'll quickly understand how cost inefficient grens are against riflemen. Without a mg supporting, riflemen are free to charge grens and take advantage of dps twice that of grens at point blank while costing only 17% more.


And cons beat grens up close too, the trick is getting there. Rifles don't have moving camo where they can pop up in optimal range and catch the enemy before they can start putting shots into them. This is actually the exact reason close range squads all have some means of closing (sprint, smoke or camo) because taking fire closing is an RNG fest of who will Winn by the time you get to your optimal range. Drop a rifle model on approach and you are 4 on 4 where the grens, especially with that lmg will shred you.
18 Feb 2019, 00:30 AM
#68
avatar of IncendiaryRounds:)

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And cons beat grens up close too, the trick is getting there. Rifles don't have moving camo where they can pop up in optimal range and catch the enemy before they can start putting shots into them. This is actually the exact reason close range squads all have some means of closing (sprint, smoke or camo) because taking fire closing is an RNG fest of who will Winn by the time you get to your optimal range. Drop a rifle model on approach and you are 4 on 4 where the grens, especially with that lmg will shred you.


Cresc already demonstrated that unless riflemen are running across negative cover, grens don't have the dps to punish riflemen that choose to close the distance. Cons are another story since their close range dps isn't as good as rifles and their 1.087 RA allows grens to do more damage when they close in.

And I'm talking about stock grens vs stock rifles. And riflemen easily beat grens at midrange. You don't even need to close in all the way to beat them unless the grens are using sandbags.
18 Feb 2019, 00:33 AM
#69
avatar of IncendiaryRounds:)

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This isn't me joking around. The LMG is a long range weapon with a very low dropoff. The LMG grens lose handily at close range but match at 20-25 and from 25+ they preform better.



Yes, u are joking. If lmg grens match double bar riflemen at range 20-25, you'd hear about grens being op all day all night on this forum just like the recent JLI rants. I'm done with you. You're beyond delusional.
18 Feb 2019, 00:57 AM
#70
avatar of IncendiaryRounds:)

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Something tells me that wouldn't go as well as you think.

My USF experience tells me, Grens can chill in cover and pick Riflemen as they approach, if you can close in without taking damage then you will feel the reward of your extra 40 MP.
It's hard to be cost inefficient when you are cheaper.


Cheaper by 40mp yet does only half the damage in close. Yeah, real cost efficient. Grens don't have sandbags unlike volks, a unit that I think should be tweaked, so its harder to sit in cover. If an Ost player sits his grens in cover at all times and doesn't get an mg, he basically is only guarding 3 or 4 points with a gren each, you're free to cap the rest of the map as he's guarding only a quarter of the map. If he wants to win, he needs more points, therefore he needs to attack, thus leaving cover and when grens meet riflemen without cover themselves they autolose close and midrange and can't decisively win max range as it's around 50-50 chance. Since there's no mg, riflemen can easily get into midrange vs attacking grens (since they're not in cover) and autowin. Turn that major map advantage into the Sherman Brigade and encircle his forces camping in the quarter of the map, throw smoke, grenades, and/or arty to dislodge paks and stomp his brains out. Easy USF win if Ost has no mg.

Your USF experiences are pathetic.
18 Feb 2019, 01:19 AM
#71
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

Yes, u are joking. If lmg grens match double bar riflemen at range 20-25, you'd hear about grens being op all day all night on this forum just like the recent JLI rants. I'm done with you. You're beyond delusional.


I ran the numbers and he's right: they cross over within that range.

Range 20
  • Veterancy 3 Grenadiers with LMG42: 27.106
  • Veterancy 3 Riflemen with 2x BAR: 28.23

Range 25
  • Veterancy 3 Grenadiers with LMG42: 25.84
  • Veterancy 3 Riflemen with 2x BAR: 24.708
18 Feb 2019, 01:34 AM
#72
avatar of IncendiaryRounds:)

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jump backJump back to quoted post18 Feb 2019, 01:19 AMLago


I ran the numbers and he's right: they cross over within that range.

Range 20
  • Veterancy 3 Grenadiers with LMG42: 27.106
  • Veterancy 3 Riflemen with 2x BAR: 28.23

Range 25
  • Veterancy 3 Grenadiers with LMG42: 25.84
  • Veterancy 3 Riflemen with 2x BAR: 24.708


Except grens have worse RA stats and only 4men. Which is why it's almost a guaranteed loss at that range for grens.
18 Feb 2019, 03:01 AM
#73
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2358



Something tells me that wouldn't go as well as you think.

My USF experience tells me, Grens can chill in cover and pick Riflemen as they approach...
It's hard to be cost inefficient when you are cheaper.

And this day the first allied biased player discovered, its a bad idea to face a DEFENSIVE troop IN COVER in a FRONTAL ASSAULT (didnt you ran through a road with negative cover too? it would be very appreciated the information)
Wow, riflemen should be like terminators, kill anything no brainer, approach and horde like some sort of zombie shooters.
But dont worry when IS get into heavy cover and garrison a building, no one will discuss how good they perform.
18 Feb 2019, 03:04 AM
#74
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2358



They are on par with Fusiliers and the G43, obers outpreform them medium to long range, MG42 grens outpreform them at medium to long range.

Fallschirms beat them at all ranges.

As yourself said in another topic, you are factically wrong, but dont worry we all get that you cant beat worse troops with your riflemen. I really dont know why obers can Outperform your riflemen, its like they had some sort of weakness, it cant be.
18 Feb 2019, 03:11 AM
#75
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2358

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Feb 2019, 18:40 PMSerrith
FYI, cons cost 240mp. Not sure where you got 200mp from.

My bad, tnx for the correction. I must have confused its cost with ostruppens
18 Feb 2019, 07:42 AM
#76
avatar of SeductiveCardbordBox

Posts: 591 | Subs: 1

As yourself said in another topic, you are factically wrong, but dont worry we all get that you cant beat worse troops with your riflemen. I really dont know why obers can Outperform your riflemen, its like they had some sort of weakness, it cant be.


A) No I'm not
B) Obers should beat rifles, and do. But IR's double bar rifle fetish is being used as an excuse for the MG42 being better than all other MGs at the same price point and so we go on the tortuous, and probably fruitless effort to demonstrate why they're not commenting on the state of the game accurately.

Except grens have worse RA stats and only 4men. Which is why it's almost a guaranteed loss at that range for grens.


Also not true. 0.91 vs. 0.97 at vet 0.

Every time the actuaal in game vaules don't agree with your bias are you going to just keep yelling about some other aspect to try stay relevent? What next, are grens bad because rifles only cost 20mp to reinforce and have seven men and 10muni grenades?
18 Feb 2019, 08:48 AM
#77
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 1392

I still would prefer Grens in T0, a buff of Ostheer's Pios to Sappers stats and MG42 in T1.

But still, there would be the problem of Pios be to close to assault Grendiers. I would replace the Assaul-Gren with atrillery officer, because the unit isn't needed. Or, tactical smoke.

18 Feb 2019, 13:12 PM
#78
avatar of IncendiaryRounds:)

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Also not true. 0.91 vs. 0.97 at vet 0.

Every time the actuaal in game vaules don't agree with your bias are you going to just keep yelling about some other aspect to try stay relevent? What next, are grens bad because rifles only cost 20mp to reinforce and have seven men and 10muni grenades?


Lago was using vet 3 stats to compare dps. At vet 3 grens have 0.7 RA while RM have 0.63 RA. Yet you're the one screaming about MY bias?!:lolol:
18 Feb 2019, 16:45 PM
#79
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2358

A) No I'm not
B) Obers should beat rifles, and do. But IR's double bar rifle fetish is being used as an excuse for the MG42 being better than all other MGs at the same price point and so we go on the tortuous, and probably fruitless effort to demonstrate why they're not commenting on the state of the game accurately.

It seems the rat is cornered and the only escape goat it has its to give excuses and pre made arguments no one called for...
No one mentioned IR double bar until you did.

Please dont derail threads anymore.
18 Feb 2019, 16:53 PM
#80
avatar of SeductiveCardbordBox

Posts: 591 | Subs: 1


It seems the rat is cornered and the only escape goat it has its to give excuses and pre made arguments no one called for...
No one mentioned IR double bar until you did.

Please dont derail threads anymore.


Dear god you're insufferable.

IR in this context is a shorthand way of referring to IncendiaryRounds, the other person in this ongoing tooth pulling of a discussion. The slightest amount of competence would have made that self evident.

Don't get so smug about your own lack of reading comprehension, it's embarrasing


All of which is little impact on the fundementals:

A) The MG42 imo is in a good spot
B) Every other MG falls short of the MG42
C) Either the others need to be made more cost effective or the MG42 needs to bump in price
D) Grenadiers are not a reason to not implement this change
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