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russian armor

OKW vs UKF is completely broken.

31 Jan 2019, 00:32 AM
#21
avatar of Jae For Jett
Senior Strategist Badge

Posts: 928 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Jan 2019, 13:57 PMEuan
Good question, personally I just don't like the (intentional) decision that was made to make it an all-ranges upgrade. Combined with flame nade it means that Volks can 1v1 any enemy squad, either by (a) closing the distance and flame to force the enemy to move around, or (b) waiting for opponent squads to close the distance, dropping models on the way and still winning up close (+flame +sandbag, usually). Basically they can turn any situation (offense or defense) into a favorable one and have consistent DPS output the whole time.

I would rather have a different upgrade that has even higher DPS, but is focused on either short or long range, so the OKW player has to actually think about positioning rather than just running stuff around from different angles and spamming nades.

BARs are an all range upgrade. LMG42s are an all range upgrade. G43s are an all range upgrade. LMG34s are an all range upgrade. IIRC, DP28s, and brens on sappers are an all range upgrade. Thompsons are basically an all range upgrade. Why are all range upgrades bad?

Volks have ranges where they can 1v1 most squads, but they will not holistically 1v1 most squads.
31 Jan 2019, 01:14 AM
#22
avatar of Premium_Hacker

Posts: 24

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Jan 2019, 10:46 AMEuan
OK, I don't usually post things this dramatic, and I'm also posting in replay reviews so that I can L2P, but I honestly think this is the most broken matchup in the game right now.



Have been trying to get back into UKF for the last few days but I have experienced this nonstop. Every Wehr matchup I win easily, every single OKW matchup I lose, even in the 50% of games where I completely outplay the opponent and get several wipes.

JLI are making things worse, but they aren't even the real problem (there are plenty other OKW call-in infantry options). The problem is that OKW gets more infantry, faster than anyone else. And anyone who isn't a completely new player can just run them around the map, cap everything, spam flame nades to beat every garrison or defensive position, spam sandbags to effortlessly defend every point they take, spam fausts to beat any light vehicle. Once OKW has map control, it's an automatic economic victory anyway. This is way worse than USF Riflespam ever was.

Yes, there are very good counters in Vickers, Bren Carrier, AEC, and Sniper. However, any map with a lot of sight blockers strongly negates all of these counters, and there are already enough OKW squads running around that there will always be another you can send in from the side or behind your opponent.

I play all factions but I've stopped playing OKW now, it's just boring to rely on infantry / territory spam, and I'm quitting UKF until this shit gets fixed.

I've been making this argument that Volks need toning down for something like a year now, I have no idea how they have not only been untouched despite the ongoing discussion, but JLI has been added into this ridiculous mix. Seriously, just change one small thing, be it sandbags, flame nade, StG, faust, MP cost, vet, whatever. OKW early infantry spam is ruining the game right now.


play a game as axis lol
31 Jan 2019, 01:51 AM
#23
avatar of elchino7
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Posts: 6343 | Subs: 1


BARs are an all range upgrade. LMG42s are an all range upgrade. G43s are an all range upgrade. LMG34s are an all range upgrade. IIRC, DP28s, and brens on sappers are an all range upgrade. Thompsons are basically an all range upgrade. Why are all range upgrades bad?

Volks have ranges where they can 1v1 most squads, but they will not holistically 1v1 most squads.


LMGs which can't be used on the move, are not "all range upgrade". On top of been bullied by CQC or units moving around pass them.
DP28 and Bren should have lower damage at 0/5 range at least for those units who normally wield it.

I would call all weapon upgrades although, no brainers. Because even if they have CONs, such as LMG and SMGs, they really overpower those deficiencies easily.

I do think Assault Rifle type of weapons have a bad design problem. They don't have the limitations of LMGs, while they still retain far more ranged DPS than they should. On top of having scatter hits.

31 Jan 2019, 03:32 AM
#24
avatar of Jae For Jett
Senior Strategist Badge

Posts: 928 | Subs: 2



LMGs which can't be used on the move, are not "all range upgrade". On top of been bullied by CQC or units moving around pass them.
DP28 and Bren should have lower damage at 0/5 range at least for those units who normally wield it.

I understand what youre getting at, but I literally cannot think of a situation in which I would rather have my grens not be upgraded with the mg42. You dont want to chase retreating squads with grens. If youre closing in against cover, the dps you inflict will be negligible until you actually stop and fire (having reached the range where cover is nullified). So even in these situations Id still say the mg42 is an upgrade.

I guess theres the weird aimtime/proning animation that means the squad can be circled and the mg42 model will spin around never firing, but that is very much an edge case.

Given all of this, I still think its fair to say the mg42 is an all ranges upgrade (brens and DPs exempt).

Edit: Actually, thinking about the terms used, the mg42, and mg34 (and again, I think the dp and brens on sappers) are literally all ranges upgrades. I think the term "all situations" upgrade is closer to what you mean. Which, again, id stil argue the mg42 is.
31 Jan 2019, 07:43 AM
#25
avatar of Wiking

Posts: 58

I agree that Volksgrenadiers might be too versatile for their cost, including solid AI performance with STGs, having snare and excellent anti-cover and anti-garrison capabilities with flame grenade (not to mention scavenging decrewed team weapons but that's minor). However, I personally don't have much trouble against them if the map doesn't have much shotblockers, so Vickers HMG and UC deal with OKW infantry pushes quite well. I struggle against them on maps like Elst and Statschtudt though but that might be L2p issue.

However, one point I'd like to make is that I absolutely cannot do anything against double ISG. They shred infantry, team weapons and mortar emplacement like paper. If anyone knows what to do against that, I'm all ears.

(should mention that I exclusively play 2v2)
31 Jan 2019, 09:31 AM
#26
avatar of elchino7
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I understand what youre getting at, but I literally cannot think of a situation in which I would rather have my grens not be upgraded with the mg42. You dont want to chase retreating squads with grens. If youre closing in against cover, the dps you inflict will be negligible until you actually stop and fire (having reached the range where cover is nullified). So even in these situations Id still say the mg42 is an upgrade.

I guess theres the weird aimtime/proning animation that means the squad can be circled and the mg42 model will spin around never firing, but that is very much an edge case.

Given all of this, I still think its fair to say the mg42 is an all ranges upgrade (brens and DPs exempt).

Edit: Actually, thinking about the terms used, the mg42, and mg34 (and again, I think the dp and brens on sappers) are literally all ranges upgrades. I think the term "all situations" upgrade is closer to what you mean. Which, again, id stil argue the mg42 is.


I agree with the general notion of your point, but i do think that there's merit to remark that LMG do indeed have a "weakness".


Chasing: i guess it depends on the situation. If you can block the retreating squad pathing i'll say it's worth. If you are not sacrificing positioning i think it's better to chase for a bit and then stop when they are gonna get close to max range.

Grens: not in today's meta, but against soviet double sniper (which in that case you should go for G43 if you have them available) or maxim spam.
The funny thing is, even if LMG42 is stronger, and even if LMG grens are overall far better than vanilla ones, it still removes an option from the squad. In the cases of Sappers and Guards, even if their upgrade is indivdualy weaker, i'll say they don't do much on their own on the move. Guards comes with PTRS which further cements their role as standing ground units and sappers don't do much on their own by the time they arrive.



Just to be clear: all weapon upgrades are no brainers, as i said before. BUT LMG at least have a drawback. Assault Rifles and Carbines get the best of both worlds. Damage and DPS on the move.
31 Jan 2019, 10:37 AM
#27
avatar of Clarity

Posts: 247

Currently I think going 4x Tommies and a Universal Carrier will allow you to compete with the standard 4 Volks spam. Usually, I tech after getting my base composition and then focus on getting a sapper to repair the UC and an AT Gun to help with vehicles if they show up. If the opponent decides to go for a Panzer II I generally will opt for an AEC to counter, otherwise focus on teching for a fast Centaur or Cromwell (if he has medium armor already). After that generally a Firefly into a Croc/AVRE or regular Churchill is recommended. The Comet isn't great currently for it's cost so I wouldn't recommend going for it. You can also spam Valentines if you want and that should work unless your opponent builds Puma's and out-micro's you or uses HEAT Rounds which are really good on the revamped Elite Armor Doctrine. I would say only get Weapon Racks and Nades when you find yourself floating munitions.
31 Jan 2019, 10:42 AM
#28
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 1820

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Jan 2019, 10:37 AMClarity
Currently I think going 4x Tommies and a Universal Carrier will allow you to compete with the standard 4 Volks spam. Usually, I tech after getting my base composition and then focus on getting a sapper to repair the UC and an AT Gun to help with vehicles if they show up. If the opponent decides to go for a Panzer II I generally will opt for an AEC to counter, otherwise focus on teching for a fast Centaur or Cromwell (if he has medium armor already). After that generally a Firefly into a Croc/AVRE or regular Churchill is recommended. The Comet is great currently for it's cost so I wouldn't recommend going for it. You can also spam Valentines if you want and that should work unless your opponent builds Puma's and out-micro's you or uses HEAT Rounds which are really good on the revamped Elite Armor Doctrine. I would say only get Weapon Racks and Nades when you find yourself floating munitions.


exactly this. Tommys with some upgrades can really well deal with volks. bring them in cover and wonder how fast they bring volks in trouble.

31 Jan 2019, 10:49 AM
#29
avatar of Lago

Posts: 2731

I usually get nades as UKF. They're dirt cheap and they're the best way I've found so far to make up for UKF's indirect fire deficiency: flank their MGs early game and use a grenade to wipe them.

They also deter Volks from closing and using their flame nades.
31 Jan 2019, 11:11 AM
#30
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 1820

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Jan 2019, 10:49 AMLago
I usually get nades as UKF. They're dirt cheap and they're the best way I've found so far to make up for UKF's indirect fire deficiency: flank their MGs early game and use a grenade to wipe them.

They also deter Volks from closing and using their flame nades.


i had massive succes to flank on teamgames with 2-4 tommys at start retreating units/ following mgs crews with grenades...so less ppl expect such flanking and early grenades....which wipe very often
31 Jan 2019, 11:30 AM
#31
avatar of Butcher

Posts: 1079

Build a Vickers and watch how OKW can't kill it properly.

Build a Bren carrier and watch how the Raketenwerfer misses it on a regular basis.

Lategame Churchill can easily win you the game since OKW has only slow firing AT options (Panther and JP IV). All this coupled with cancer Bren blobs and you are set. Enjoy the underperformance of the MG34.
31 Jan 2019, 12:00 PM
#32
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 1820

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Jan 2019, 11:30 AMButcher
Build a Vickers and watch how OKW can't kill it properly.

Build a Bren carrier and watch how the Raketenwerfer misses it on a regular basis.

Lategame Churchill can easily win you the game since OKW has only slow firing AT options (Panther and JP IV). All this coupled with cancer Bren blobs and you are set. Enjoy the underperformance of the MG34.


technically the jp4 shot fast..but since it have lower pen than allie medium tanks..it will bounce alot on this thing ...so yeah..church is one of the OP tank imo since it can take dmg like a KT but axis has less potent AT options...so its more difficult to deal with church as okw as to deal with kt as allie...since one allie TD bully kt easily
4 Feb 2019, 04:22 AM
#33
avatar of Zyllen

Posts: 665

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Jan 2019, 07:43 AMWiking
I agree that Volksgrenadiers might be too versatile for their cost, including solid AI performance with STGs, having snare and excellent anti-cover and anti-garrison capabilities with flame grenade (not to mention scavenging decrewed team weapons but that's minor). However, I personally don't have much trouble against them if the map doesn't have much shotblockers, so Vickers HMG and UC deal with OKW infantry pushes quite well. I struggle against them on maps like Elst and Statschtudt though but that might be L2p issue.

However, one point I'd like to make is that I absolutely cannot do anything against double ISG. They shred infantry, team weapons and mortar emplacement like paper. If anyone knows what to do against that, I'm all ears.

(should mention that I exclusively play 2v2)


They hold their own but after the allied infantry gets vet and weapon upgrades they just death weight.
4 Feb 2019, 04:43 AM
#34
avatar of addvaluejack

Posts: 236

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Feb 2019, 04:22 AMZyllen


They hold their own but after the allied infantry gets vet and weapon upgrades they just death weight.


Totally agree, and all allies' mainline infantries have smaller target size than volks at vet3.
4 Feb 2019, 13:17 PM
#35
avatar of OrangePest

Posts: 197 | Subs: 1

If you want to win just spam valentines, ez pz
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