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russian armor

I think the comet tank is due for a buff.

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24 Jan 2019, 12:58 PM
#41
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 3895

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Jan 2019, 11:20 AMLago


You'd have to drop the AI to Panther levels, yes. If it's got solid AI and solid AT with a little below Panther durability, it's a Pershing.

As for overlapping with the Firefly, I don't think it does. The Firefly is a very slow firing, fragile sniper tank. Snares have done a lot for it, but it's nevertheless a sniper which'll lose to a medium tank at close range. Even the Cromwell is better off in a brawl.

A Panther Comet could coexist with the Firefly in the same way the JP4 and Panther coexist. If anything, the Panther is favored over the JP4.
yes but what would u change ? pen does not make sense for the comet (fire fly exist) , accuracy is not a problem

either a little buff to the MGs or a 0.4 buff to reload at max
24 Jan 2019, 13:05 PM
#42
avatar of Lago

Posts: 2639

yes but what would u change ? pen does not make sense for the comet (fire fly exist) , accuracy is not a problem

either a little buff to the MGs or a 0.4 buff to reload at max


Penetration. It's got a similar gun to the Firefly.

The Firefly is a long range tank with a very slow fire rate. If it's not leveraging its range, it'll lose to a standard medium.

The Panther's fast, has good penetration and bonus health, but awful AI. It can't snipe, but doesn't lose to enemy tanks if a brawl happens. A Panther-like Comet would have the same.
24 Jan 2019, 14:19 PM
#43
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 3895

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Jan 2019, 13:05 PMLago


Penetration. It's got a similar gun to the Firefly.

The Firefly is a long range tank with a very slow fire rate. If it's not leveraging its range, it'll lose to a standard medium.

The Panther's fast, has good penetration and bonus health, but awful AI. It can't snipe, but doesn't lose to enemy tanks if a brawl happens. A Panther-like Comet would have the same.
then their role would overlap, and u would need to increase the cost of the comet or remove the comet AI
24 Jan 2019, 14:24 PM
#44
avatar of Serrith

Posts: 248

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Jan 2019, 11:10 AMVipper

When it comes to surviving.
.....

So Comet is superior to everything accept HP and acceleration.

.......
So comet is superior to everything accept HP and rotation.

Given that allied TD are superior and that Comet is far better dealing with ATG I would say that Comet has better chances to survive that battle field in unless it facing a Panther 1vs1.

Comet cost is 500/185 Cost of the Panther is 490/185 so it cost 10 manpower more not fuel.



For general use though, I consider acceleration and rotation more important stats for combat than top speed for these two vehicles given they are both already fast enough to outpace TDs and heavies. It's more important to be able to pull in or out of LoS quickly which requires acceleration and rotation (around shot blockers).
Even given this, the difference in acceleration and rotation at vet 0 and vet 3 aren't worth noting. The top speed is only going to be useful for movement from flank to flank.


I think the panther is better compared here to allied TDs than axis TDs as a counter. Panther outranges the comet and is available to both axis factions. Anyway, Comet has a similar chance of facing a panther as the panther does facing a TD. However, the Panther has an easier time against the allied mediums than the Comet does against the P4 due to armor vs pen differences.


For utility, panther also does contribute some AA which I forgot to mention but the grenades are really not worth mentioning.

You are right, I had forgotten about the fuel increase to the panther. That is my mistake.




Isnt the comets gun special and doesnt collide with cover though?

Also should you include the MG you have to pay for in those above numbers?


Yes, if the upgrade is a non doc no brain upgrade that doesn't have any sort of tech requirements I think it's important to factor in. This includes the commander upgrade for the brits and the MG upgrade for American and German tanks.
24 Jan 2019, 14:37 PM
#45
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6215 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Jan 2019, 14:24 PMSerrith
...
However, the Panther has an easier time against the allied mediums than the Comet does against the P4 due to armor vs pen differences.
...

That is incorrect, PzIV is slow and it has very low penetration to threaten the Comet.

Generally Allied medium have more penetration (accept T34/76) than PzIV, more mobility, the Panther has lower armor, while allied mediums are cheaper.

I would rather have Comet facing PzIV than Panther facing allied mediums.
24 Jan 2019, 17:06 PM
#46
avatar of CorMovus

Posts: 16

How about making things more complicated :nahnah:
making the comet cheaper and weaker.
cheaper: make it cost the same as the church 490 mp 160 fl 16pop
weaker: reduce armour and reduce hp to 720

that would make the comet more of a swarm tank.
24 Jan 2019, 18:19 PM
#47
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 1436

How about making things more complicated :nahnah:
making the comet cheaper and weaker.
cheaper: make it cost the same as the church 490 mp 160 fl 16pop
weaker: reduce armour and reduce hp to 720

that would make the comet more of a swarm tank.



No because the Cromwell is supposed to be the UKF "swarm tank".
24 Jan 2019, 18:31 PM
#48
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 1436

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Jan 2019, 14:37 PMVipper

That is incorrect, PzIV is slow and it has very low penetration to threaten the Comet.

Generally Allied medium have more penetration (accept T34/76) than PzIV, more mobility, the Panther has lower armor, while allied mediums are cheaper.

I would rather have Comet facing PzIV than Panther facing allied mediums.


Dude people can read stats. It´s not wise to make up lies like that.

Non-doctrinal allied medium tanks only have slightly more penetration than the P4 in close range. Meanwhile the P4 has the most penetration on far range compared to all non-doctrinal Allied medium tanks.

Here are the stats:

Sherman: 140-120-100
Cromwell: 135- 120- 105
T34/76: 120-100-80
P4: 125-115-110

On top of that the P4 has the fastest reload as well.

Now regarding the Comet and the Panther. The Panther is WAY better against medium tanks because of more HP, less reload time, way better range and 100% chance of penetration. Meanwhile the Comet often even bounces against the OKW P4 or vet 2 Ost P4.


Panther 960 HP / 260 Armour

5.2-5.6 reload 260-240-220 Penetration 160 damage 50 range

Comet 800 HP / 290 Armour

5.9 - 6.4 reload 210-190-170 Penetration 160 damage 40 range

Yet the Comet is better against medium tanks? Are you having a fucking laugh?
24 Jan 2019, 18:49 PM
#49
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6215 | Subs: 1



Dude people can read stats. It´s not wise to make up lies like that.

Non-doctrinal allied medium tanks only have slightly more penetration than the P4 in close range. Meanwhile the P4 has the most penetration on far range compared to all non-doctrinal Allied medium tanks.

Here are the stats:

Sherman: 140-120-100
Cromwell: 135- 120- 105
T34/76: 120-100-80
P4: 125-115-110

On top of that the P4 has the fastest reload as well.

Now regarding the Comet and the Panther. The Panther is WAY better against medium tanks because of more HP, less reload time, way better range and 100% chance of penetration. Meanwhile the Comet often even bounces against the OKW P4 or vet 2 Ost P4.


Panther 960 HP / 260 Armour

5.2-5.6 reload 260-240-220 Penetration 160 damage 50 range

Comet 800 HP / 290 Armour

5.9 - 6.4 reload 210-190-170 Penetration 160 damage 40 range

Sherman chance to penetrate Panther at ranges 0/20/40
Front 53.8/46/38.5
Rear 100/100/100

Cromwell chance to penetrate Panther at ranges 0/20/40
Front 52/46/40
Rear 100/100/100

PzIV chance to penetrate Comet at ranges 0/20/40
Front 0.43/39.6/34.5
Rear 100/100/100

Allied medium have better penetration at mid range 20 since 120>115. PzIV has worse chance to penetrate at all ranges while being more expensive.

If you also factor in the chance to hit and especially on the move the PzIV has even less chance to hit and penetrate a Comet.

Those are the numbers happy now?

Try countering a Comet with PzIV and let me know how well it goes for you.


Yet the Comet is better against medium tanks? Are you having a fucking laugh?

I suggest that you try reading and understanding what I wrote instead of creating your own claims as mine.

This is what I wrote:
jump backJump back to quoted post24 Jan 2019, 14:37 PMVipper

....
I would rather have Comet facing PzIV than Panther facing allied mediums.

Which is clearly a personal preference.
24 Jan 2019, 19:04 PM
#50
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 326

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Jan 2019, 18:49 PMVipper

Sherman chance to penetrate Panther at ranges 0/20/40
Front 53.8/46/38.5
Rear 100/100/100

Cromwell chance to penetrate Panther at ranges 0/20/40
Front 52/46/40
Rear 100/100/100

PzIV chance to penetrate Comet at ranges 0/20/40
Front 0.43/39.6/34.5
Rear 100/100/100

Allied medium have better penetration at mid range 20 since 120>115. PzIV has worse chance to penetrate at all ranges while being more expensive.

If you also factor in the chance to and especially on the move the PzIV has even less chance to and penetrate a Comet.

Those are the numbers happy now?

Try countering a Comet with PzIV and let me know how well it goes for you.



Funny how you ignore T-34/76 and panther vet 2 stats, but game is not a vacuum so I'm not going to get sucked into this debate.

What makes the comet worse vs Okw p4 for example compares to panther vs meds is the crap vet.

Comet problem is 10mins after you keep it alive you're going to be clubbed by vet panthers and vet p4 that cleans up Tommies for breakfast.

All axis have to do vs a comet is sit back and vet your tanks, then you win because comet vet is laughable compared to other tanks in its price range. But you are still sticking to your silly argument the tank throwing grenades at vet 3 is somehow better than a straight up reload buff like panther or Pershing gets.

Brits do not need a tank to clear at guns in assault with grenade and deal with a panzer 4, they already have Churchill for that. Imo remove all the gimmicks like random nade pops and give it better scaling. similar vet 2 and 3 to IS-2 would be a good start (extra range back to 50 at vet 2 so you can at least fire back vs panther, don't worry Okw fanbois your tanks will still vet better they just won't club)
24 Jan 2019, 19:19 PM
#51
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6215 | Subs: 1



Funny how you ignore T-34/76 and panther vet 2 stats, but game is not a vacuum so I'm not going to get sucked into this debate.

What makes the comet worse vs Okw p4 for example compares to panther vs meds is the crap vet.

Comet problem is 10mins after you keep it alive you're going to be clubbed by vet panthers and vet p4 that cleans up Tommies for breakfast.

All axis have to do vs a comet is sit back and vet your tanks, then you win because comet vet is laughable compared to other tanks in its price range. But you are still sticking to your silly argument the tank throwing grenades at vet 3 is somehow better than a straight up reload buff like panther or Pershing gets.

Funny how you ignore the cost of T34/76 which allows one to have around 3 of them if the opponent has a single Panther and which can kill the Panther.

If you bothered to read before jumping in you could actually see the vet comparison in post 38.

Panther vet
Unlocks the 'Blitzkrieg' ability
+10% armour , +40% weapon rotation speed
-30% reload, +20% rotation speed, +10% ac/de-celeration

Comet vet
Fires White Phosphorus instead of normal smoke
+35% Weapon rotation speed , +30% accuracy
+30% Speed, Crew will attack nearby targets with their grenades by default, +20% Acceleration

Vet 1 bonus point goes to Comet since it already has the "warspeed" ability

Vet 2 bonus Point goes to Comet since it has already better armor at vet 2 while facing weaker TD and gain 130% accuracy

Vet 3 point goes to Panther for the reload but Comet does get better mobility.

If one adds the 45 vision, smoke/WP smoke, and hammer tracking one will get a better picture.

As for your grenade comment, grenades and WP smoke allows Comet to attack ATG something that Panther has much harder time doing.

You are entitled to believe thou that comet's "vet is laughable compared to other tanks in its price range."
24 Jan 2019, 19:41 PM
#52
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 326

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Jan 2019, 19:19 PMVipper

Funny how you ignore the cost of T34/76 which allows one to have around 3 of them if the opponent has a single Panther and which can kill the Panther.

If you bothered to read before jumping in you could actually see the vet comparison in post 38.

Panther vet
Unlocks the 'Blitzkrieg' ability
+10% armour , +40% weapon rotation speed
-30% reload, +20% rotation speed, +10% ac/de-celeration

Comet vet
Fires White Phosphorus instead of normal smoke
+35% Weapon rotation speed , +30% accuracy
+30% Speed, Crew will attack nearby targets with their grenades by default, +20% Acceleration

Vet 1 bonus point goes to Comet since it already has the "warspeed" ability

Vet 2 bonus Point goes to Comet since it has already better armor at vet 2 while facing weaker TD and gain 130% accuracy

Vet 3 point goes to Panther for the reload but Comet does get better mobility.

If one adds the 45 vision, smoke/WP smoke, and hammer tracking one will get a better picture.

As for your grenade comment, grenades and WP smoke allows Comet to attack ATG something that Panther has much harder time doing.

You are entitled to believe thou that comet's "vet is laughable compared to other tanks in its price range."


Panther vet worse than comet....

Ok now I have heard it all, base stat?!? You why am I invest 185 fuel for base AI worse than a panzer 4. Base AT stats of having less range and pen than panther...

WP rounds? Have you ever tried using this buggy mess of an ability? It is a mess yet bugs do not factor into your vacuum.

Mobility is nothing compared to straight up reload and armour through vet that equal winning tank engagements. Other posters have already rebutted your mobility argument which perhaps you should read. And this bad vet comparison is Vs Ost. Vs okw these issues are a lot worse.
24 Jan 2019, 20:05 PM
#53
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 3895



Dude people can read stats. It´s not wise to make up lies like that.


Panther 960 HP / 260 Armour

5.2-5.6 reload 260-240-220 Penetration 160 damage 50 range

Comet 800 HP / 290 Armour

5.9 - 6.4 reload 210-190-170 Penetration 160 damage 40 range

Yet the Comet is better against medium tanks? Are you having a fucking laugh?
ahahahahahahahah i am
24 Jan 2019, 20:09 PM
#54
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 326

Vipper if comet is fine and not in need of changes then why have they hardly been built by top players in any of the last tournaments? If it was viable and not an overpriced paperweight we would at least have seen a bunch built with how bad the croc was.

The last time I remember luvnest building one (almost a year ago) on crossing a pgren squad ran up and fired a few vollies while comet missed 5 shots trying to hit a model. That sums up comet for me. hans himself said he would rather build Cromwells because they can actually kill infantry and scale with vet. But what do they know.... obviously they must be newbs not to use the WP shells, slightly higher top speed and grenades to stomp axis with the comets OP vet.
24 Jan 2019, 20:10 PM
#55
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 3895

Vipper if comet is fine and not in need of changes then why have they hardly been built by top players in any of the last tournaments? If it was viable and not an overpriced paperweight we would at least have seen a bunch built with how bad the croc was.
comet needs some changes but not in pen or range, it might need a reload buff or an MG buff
24 Jan 2019, 20:14 PM
#56
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 326

comet needs some changes but not in pen or range, it might need a reload buff or an MG buff


Small changes to both would do the trick, medium tanks are much better at chasing down and wiping squads than the comet is. Even the panther is more reliable vs retreats with its MG damage
24 Jan 2019, 20:17 PM
#57
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 3895



Small changes to both would do the trick, medium tanks are much better at chasing down and wiping squads than the comet is. Even the panther is more reliable vs retreats with its MG damage
ok let's not exaggerate, the comet does a better job on retreating squad actually cause it uses the main cannon that ignore the accuracy penalties, the panther is only comparable to the comet if the squad are in open field
24 Jan 2019, 20:19 PM
#58
avatar of WingZero

Posts: 1364

Yeh I think comet needs either a AI or AT buff (but not both).

AI buff so it is more versatile or AT buff so it doesnt get stomped into dust by any tank who has more AT power than p4 anymore.

Right now the comet just sucks hard vs Infantry, Panthers and JP4 so it's not worth the investment.



I agree with this 100%. Comet is just an over priced all rounder tank that is not worth the tech upgrade. Atleast with defense tech you get better arty.
24 Jan 2019, 20:31 PM
#59
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 1436

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Jan 2019, 18:49 PMVipper


...



Why do you ignore ALL the stats that make Panther better than Comet like range reload penetration HP? Comet has 5% higher chance to bounce a P4 round fine but everything else sucks compared to the Panther.
24 Jan 2019, 20:35 PM
#60
avatar of CorMovus

Posts: 16




No because the Cromwell is supposed to be the UKF "swarm tank".


true however soviets have also the t34/85 while at the same time have the t34/76 both are meant for swarming and flanking. the advantage of the t34/85 over the t34/76 is that it is more reliable in penning and escaping and scales better because of its durability. The same would apply for the Comet.
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