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New Commander Submission - Discuss

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15 Jan 2019, 18:21 PM
#81
avatar of Unit G17

Posts: 498



About 2)
I would say either double flamer OR 5 men intead of 4 men, but noth both at the same time as it would be cheesy.

About 5)
Not sure, wouldn't it be like the old air supremacy ability from brits then which was extremely annoying?
Why not nerf it in a similar fashion or introduce a slightly changed ability by replacing the HE bombs with incendiary bombs? (tho that would possibly fry and melt weak GPU's, so I dont know about that) :snfPeter:



But I definitely would love to see this doc in the game!


2) Hmm, got a point, I mean even the simple pioneers with their single flamer can do major damage. I just can't decide which would be better, I leave it to the devs.

5) Not sure, I don't have brits. But here is a video which shows how it worked: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AF0mefa2HA

Btw, these doctrinal abilities can be enabled in the cheat commands mod.
15 Jan 2019, 19:08 PM
#82
avatar of JibberJabberJobber

Posts: 1602 | Subs: 3

From Derby Hat - OST Submission



I feel like this submission for OST have a ton of potential - I love his ideas for new Ostruppen, Pioneers, and Artillery stike. My only quibble are with the Medical Supplies and Hull Down - while thematically appropriate both of the abilities are hardly used as is and would only detract from the commander being a viable one players would want to use IMO.

I would further buff the Pioneer upgrade to add either a 5th man or faster repair speed. I feel entrenching tools, Puma, Panzer 3 (Command Tank w/o Aura or Command Tank), StuG E, etc. Would all fit and also make the commander a bit more attractive.


Thank you for your response, I'm really glad someone likes my suggestion. :D

You're addressing some of the concerns I expected people to have, so let me explain my thoughts behind choosing those abilities.

Medical Supplies
This is a really flexible ability that can support Ostheer's sometimes vulnerable early game. Sadly it's locked behind a situational commander that requires a safe fuel point to be effective. See it as OKW's med kits on steroids:

- Earlier healing than the med bunker, coming in at 0 CP and 30 munitions.
- Very early aura buff. It's not a strong one, but it might just tip the balance in your favor.
- Allows skipping the med bunker early on, giving you 150 more manpower to work with. Good for dealing more early pressure or to give you an extra chance if you lose a unit in the early game.
- The best on-the-field healing for Ostheer. Unlike infantry med kits, the healing is cheap, instantaneous, works with an aura and can be dropped anywhere. The healing supplies especially shine when combined with the 251 or in clutch VP moments.
- It gives replacing the med kits for Pio's and AT-Osttruppen more sense for this commander.

Hull down
It can actually be useful in specific situations:

- A hulled down Panzer 4 can fire the first shot on approaching medium armor (50 range), while being able to tank 1 more hit (even if you immediately cancel hull down after getting hit).
- A hulled down Panther outranges Allied tank destroyers (62,5 range) and has superior health and armor, giving it a similar role to the Pak43 and Elefant, but requiring a different set of counters.

I chose this ability instead of a call-in heavy tank. Both require the Allied player to #adapt their strategy when used correctly. Granted, I know it's still pretty lackluster, considering how much CoH2 favors mobility, so I hope hull down for light vehicles can be added to give it some more utility.


Wehrmacht submission feedback and ideas
Here's the link to the commander:

https://www.coh2.org/topic/85211/new-commander-submission-wehrmacht/page/1#post_id719531

Would you use this commander in a competitive setting? Any feedback is appreciated.

I'd also like ask anyone for their thoughts on some optional ideas I had for this commander:

Improved Field Equipment: Weak Kar98k's for Pio's once upgraded. Price increase to 50 munitions.

Pro's: Distinguishes upgraded Pio's further and prevents the upgrade from being too cheap.
Cons: Would be considered a nerf by some.

Hull Down: No extra received accuracy while hulling down OR hull down cast time reduced.

Pro's: Would make hull down less hard to use. Could stimulate using it more aggressively.
Cons: Hull down might already be viable enough once it's in a more early game focused commander.

Anti-tank Osttruppen: Get camouflage in cover once upgraded, making them more similar to PTRS conscripts. Possibly instead of Tank Detection.

Pro's: The squad has limited opportunity to damage vehicles otherwise.
Cons: The squad might become too efficient for its cost.
15 Jan 2019, 20:26 PM
#83
avatar of RoastinGhost

Posts: 416 | Subs: 1

An alternative to Hull Down that I've tried is a toggle mode that slows movement heavily (including turret rotation) and reduces sight by half, but increases armor by a lot. It also takes a while to transition. It's kinda like halfway-hulldown.
15 Jan 2019, 21:11 PM
#84
avatar of JibberJabberJobber

Posts: 1602 | Subs: 3

An alternative to Hull Down that I've tried is a toggle mode that slows movement heavily (including turret rotation) and reduces sight by half, but increases armor by a lot. It also takes a while to transition. It's kinda like halfway-hulldown.


A massive slowdown would be an interesting change, but to me the main benefit of Hull Down is the range increase.

What do you think about this idea?

1. Ability is toggled.
2. Tank digs itself into the ground. Same animation as the current hull down, but non-turreted tanks would have no sandbags around them.
3. Tank can only fire after the animation is finished.
4. Turreted tanks can only rotate their turret slowly, while non-turreted tanks can only rotate themselves slowly.
5. 25% range boost while active, possibly slight accuracy boost as well.
6. Ability can be only be untoggled/cancelled after the dig-in animation is finished.


The Elefant can't dig in with this change or gets a health boost instead of range.
Perhaps a name change to "Precision Firing" or something.


So like the current Hull Down, except tanks can do it themselves, take normal damage and get a rotation speed nerf.
15 Jan 2019, 23:05 PM
#85
avatar of RoastinGhost

Posts: 416 | Subs: 1




Oh, I see.
Basically having current hull-down but cast by the vehicle itself would be a nice usability change, but I think increased range adds to the ability being an issue.

Increased range means you can keep the tank in a safe place. It's easier to support when it's back there. That's why I have reduced sight on mine- it dares you to push the unit up as much as you can. It's not exactly defensive, now that I think of it.

The reduced rotation is important either way, though- it rewards flanking. That's why we have ground-mounted PaK 43s now instead of spinny 88s. With that limitation in place, you can increase the (frontal) effectiveness of the unit by a lot and still make it fair/fun. I'd argue more fun since it gives the player using the ability more to do.

So, finally, my recommendation- implement turret rotation nerf, give back a reload bonus. Non-turreted tanks could get an even bigger reload bonus, as long as they still can't turn.
16 Jan 2019, 03:17 AM
#86
avatar of Stryker5810

Posts: 18

For the USF Anti Tank Doctrine purposed bye LoopDloop can I just say some things on it cause I really like it:

1. maybe the I&R pathfinders besides normal one? Either would be cool but these ones would suit the commander a little more with the ability to try knock out tanks and call an arty strike down on them, not nessacery but could be cool!
2. USF has two types of mines, It has the mines that support paras and riflemen can put down with riflemen defence (so a normal mine thats still good) or theres the Anti Tank mine that the M20 can place down, I think the M20 mine would be good for this commander as it gives a bit more access to this mine and it IS Anti Tank, but the paras should keep the normal mine as being able to drop behind the line and place could be a little op
3. IMO the allied supply run would be far better then a single rocket pass with a p47, something USF is always lacking is muni and you could make it exactly the same as the Russian supply drop but muni rather then fuel (obviously it would cost either manpower or fuel instead) or worst case scenario you could just give it the loiter on thats in airborne, as it would still fit the them but I'd rather this one
16 Jan 2019, 04:44 AM
#87
avatar of Jackiebrown

Posts: 657

Having snipers introduced for OKW and US would be cool to see. If they don’t have them through normal teching, might as well make them call-in abilities for a Commander.

US model can be the Paratrooper Pathfinder with a scoped M1 Garand.

OKW model can be the JLI with a scoped G43 or Kar98.
16 Jan 2019, 07:17 AM
#88
avatar of Stark

Posts: 623 | Subs: 1

I thought recently about stuka for ostheer

From the technical point of view do you guys think it's possible to make 251 HT upgradable into stuka zu fuzz like in vCoH1?

I assume it should also reset it vet system and block share vetterancy
16 Jan 2019, 14:17 PM
#89
avatar of Smartie

Posts: 838 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Jan 2019, 07:17 AMStark
I thought recently about stuka for ostheer

From the technical point of view do you guys think it's possible to make 251 HT upgradable into stuka zu fuzz like in vCoH1?

I assume it should also reset it vet system and block share vetterancy


Like your idea!

About your US Commander Concept:

SLOT 2 – GLIDER HQ – glider can be deployed on the friendly territory
• 2 CPs
• Can be used as a forward HQ – can reinforce nearbly units
• Forward Retreat Point available after Major is deployed on the field – free ability that allow to use major more offensivly but still has FRP.
• Medic station – for 50 ammo HQ can be upgraded with medic that heal nearbly units (works like Soviet HQ medics)
• Allow to produce:
o American sniper – 360 MP - 1 ranger (or pathfinder) model soldier that is a statisticly copy-paste of ostheer sniper. Vet1 ability – Binoculars/Scope – gain extra vision (works the same as SU85 recon ability)
o AT paratroopers team – 300 MP, 50 AMMO – paratrooper squad equipt with 2 pieces of more beffy bazookas (extra damage, penetration, accuracy more similar to panzershrek) – They can also lie m5 mines and detects vehicules. Vet1 ability – main gun disable (works like pak40, STUG III G stun ability).
o Infiltration airborn squad – 340 MP - stealthy 5 men paratroopers squad equipt mainly with thompsons (number depend from balance point of view) that can move in cammo, can use granade and smoke nade, plant demos and AI mines (like soviet AI mines).



The theme is really cool and would offer some nice options to USF but maybe you could have a look at the glider who offers too much imo: The combi of forward hq, retreat point, and 3! new units
is too strong. I mean the addition of the sniper alone would justify 1 slot, same for infiltration airbornes. I would suggest to reduce the number of units to 1 and give the glider healing / forward hq. Other option: Replace other slots with the new units.



16 Jan 2019, 16:30 PM
#90
avatar of Stark

Posts: 623 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Jan 2019, 14:17 PMSmartie


Like your idea!

About your US Commander Concept:

SLOT 2 – GLIDER HQ – glider can be deployed on the friendly territory
...

The theme is really cool and would offer some nice options to USF but maybe you could have a look at the glider who offers too much imo: The combi of forward hq, retreat point, and 3! new units
is too strong. I mean the addition of the sniper alone would justify 1 slot, same for infiltration airbornes. I would suggest to reduce the number of units to 1 and give the glider healing / forward hq. Other option: Replace other slots with the new units.



Well, i came up with this idea becouse for me the number of 3 new units isn't so scary becouse they have quite high MP cost. Will be impossible to spam them or even use all of them at once. Player will have to pick if he wants sniper or infiltration paratroopers. Remember that Glider needs 2 CPs to be called. To that time you will have enough infantry units on the field so spam is hardly impossible.
Good example would be mechanize company where you have 2 units, WC51 and M5HT in 1 slot or buldozer and 76mm sherman in another. You have diversity but you don't use all of them in 1 game. Usually you pick of those two.

On the other hand i get your point. On balance point of view this 1 slot gives TON of work. Create the unit, balancing it, fixing bugs. So much to do and it's only one of five new commanders.

So I guess AT paratroopers could be removed.

Thx for feedback ;)
16 Jan 2019, 16:58 PM
#91
avatar of Smartie

Posts: 838 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Jan 2019, 16:30 PMStark


Well, i came up with this idea becouse for me the number of 3 new units isn't so scary becouse they have quite high MP cost. Will be impossible to spam them or even use all of them at once. Player will have to pick if he wants sniper or infiltration paratroopers. Remember that Glider needs 2 CPs to be called. To that time you will have enough infantry units on the field so spam is hardly impossible.
Good example would be mechanize company where you have 2 units, WC51 and M5HT in 1 slot or buldozer and 76mm sherman in another. You have diversity but you don't use all of them in 1 game. Usually you pick of those two.

On the other hand i get your point. On balance point of view this 1 slot gives TON of work. Create the unit, balancing it, fixing bugs. So much to do and it's only one of five new commanders.

So I guess AT paratroopers could be removed.

Thx for feedback ;)


NP!
Would appreciate it a lot if you could have a look at my OKW /Wehrmacht designs. Your expertise would be very welcome for the final update.
16 Jan 2019, 19:19 PM
#92
avatar of A. Soldier

Posts: 3094 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Jan 2019, 07:17 AMStark
I thought recently about stuka for ostheer

From the technical point of view do you guys think it's possible to make 251 HT upgradable into stuka zu fuzz like in vCoH1?

I assume it should also reset it vet system and block share vetterancy


I've been wondering the same thing actually, I've been interested in having base model vehicles in each Army which then could be upgraded to special variants through unlocking tiers and commanders.

So for example you'd have a base 251 which you could upgrade with flamethrowers, the Walking Stuka, the Owl infra red search light, the Flak gun and so on.

The US M3 halftrack would be the same thing, you'd get the upgrade to a mortar one, to the flak one, to the M16 Quad .50 cal mount one and so forth.

It's basically something like the 221 but for more vehicles, even the Shermans for example could be done in such a manner.

I also wanted to mention that it's pretty interesting how we have similar ideas for the HQ Glider. I based mine off of the Operation Market Garden use of them as well as Europe at War and of course the UKF HQ Glider already in game in the Vanguard Operations Regiment, but looking at it now I should make tweak my suggestion a bit since the forward retreat is indeed a good idea and you could save up from the Major then.
16 Jan 2019, 19:26 PM
#93
avatar of RoastinGhost

Posts: 416 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Jan 2019, 07:17 AMStark

From the technical point of view do you guys think it's possible to make 251 HT upgradable into stuka zu fuzz like in vCoH1?


I believe they are distinct models, so that's not possible with the way things are set up now.

For your US commander idea- you could combine the 2 para squads into a "paratrooper scout squad" with 5 men. Then, they could upgrade to bazookas or thompsons.
16 Jan 2019, 21:55 PM
#94
avatar of Stark

Posts: 623 | Subs: 1


I also wanted to mention that it's pretty interesting how we have similar ideas for the HQ Glider. I based mine off of the Operation Market Garden use of them as well as Europe at War and of course the UKF HQ Glider already in game in the Vanguard Operations Regiment, but looking at it now I should make tweak my suggestion a bit since the forward retreat is indeed a good idea and you could save up from the Major then.


General concept was created thanks to Sanders93 and he took the idea from you so it's kinda thanks to you :D And yeah, Glider were used by US airborns which is worth to meansion. I;m fan of "extra tier" for USF and glider is perfect for it.

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Jan 2019, 16:58 PMSmartie

NP!
Would appreciate it a lot if you could have a look at my OKW /Wehrmacht designs. Your expertise would be very welcome for the final update.


Sure, i will. Just have to find more time for it.
Currently i just saw only OKW commander. Personally i have quite diffrent vision of a commander. But even thought if we look at your concept it's generally okey. Like the way you think, especially ambush ability.

What i didn't like is:
1. NEW: Panzer Jaeger Unit has 2 shreks at start. That's way too strong in my opition. Shreks should scale with time. So 1 shrek at start and second available after T3. Think about this way - 2 squads like that and any light vehicule gonna be 1 shotted. And you haven't even spend single ammo point on this unit. I would say 1 shrek at start or 2 panzerbushe AT rifle - later on replace by 2 shreks.
2. vetted p4 - well, OKW already has command panther. Stronger p4 doesn't really needed becouse current is already the stronger version of ostheer (where it would fit better). Tiger "E" could replace it.
3. Weapon supply drop doesn't fit personally to "OKW Kampfgruppe". I wouldn't add pak40 if there is already a AT infantry squad.
4. There isn;t any heavy ammo ability that you could spend your resources.

So i would keep 1,2,3, replaced 4 with ammo heavy ability and as 5 i would add Tiger "E"

BTW. My current ostheer commander concept is basicly copy paste of your own idea of Grossdeutschland division. I really like it. I'll try to ajust it and add later on.
17 Jan 2019, 05:08 AM
#95
avatar of Smartie

Posts: 838 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Jan 2019, 21:55 PMStark


So i would keep 1,2,3, replaced 4 with ammo heavy ability and as 5 i would add Tiger "E"

BTW. My current ostheer commander concept is basicly copy paste of your own idea of Grossdeutschland division. I really like it. I'll try to ajust it and add later on.


Thx for your feedback, i will update the design and work in the suggested changes. Cant wait to see your own version of the wehrmacht theme!
17 Jan 2019, 12:40 PM
#96
avatar of Stark

Posts: 623 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Jan 2019, 05:08 AMSmartie



I looked into Strategic Tank Reserve docrine

If i may i would like to point out few things:
1. Slot 3: 4CP – Reconnaissance Overflight - it should be in 1 commander with radio. Both abilities gives a intel options and there is no need for it. I would suggest to pick one of above.
2. Slot 4: 7CP - High Explosive Anti-Tank Shells (HEAT) - as much as i love the ability i don't see it with a new Tiger tank "E". Sounds way way too strong and could also 2 shots any medium tank. It's not so scary for KT becouse it's a really slow heavy tank. Tiger with blitz and HEAT sound way to good.
3. P4J - proposal is great but i would suggest to add tank commander upgrade (but without barrage, only sight and accuracy buff) expect mg and maybe diffrent form of vet1 ability.

I would also suggest:
1. add a infantry ability - buff panzergrens and piosquad kinda like in german infantry. Pgrens gain abilities to better fight around tanks and pio squad can repair faster etc.
2. Hull down - this ability needs a serious change. Currently it underperform and it's just not atractive. Making it a "buttom option" expect a buildable by infantry defense would help.

Generally speaking really like the idea of radio, p4j, and finally, long waited TigerAce ravamp. But two other abilities could be used diffrently. Not sure if my hothead ideas are correct though.
17 Jan 2019, 13:33 PM
#97
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3164 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Jan 2019, 12:40 PMStark
2. Slot 4: 7CP - High Explosive Anti-Tank Shells (HEAT) - as much as i love the ability i don't see it with a new Tiger tank "E". Sounds way way too strong and could also 2 shots any medium tank. It's not so scary for KT becouse it's a really slow heavy tank. Tiger with blitz and HEAT sound way to good.


The Tiger does only 160 damage, so HEAT shells (+30% = 208 damage) on their own don't really change anything to the standard medium match up.

Medium tanks still take 4 shots to kill (3x208 + 16). The only thing it does is that it works well in conjunction with other units, as the remaining 16 damage can be done by anything from deflection or explosive damage to Panzerfausts.

Though there are still advantages, as with HEAT it only takes two shots to kill lights (400HP) and four instead of five shots to kill the premium mediums (800HP).



So yeah probably still OP on the Tiger as it gets a really high ROF with good speed and range with vet.
It could still work if you simply disable HEAT for the Tiger and leave it for all the other vehicles.
17 Jan 2019, 15:27 PM
#98
avatar of Smartie

Posts: 838 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Jan 2019, 12:40 PMStark


I looked into Strategic Tank Reserve docrine
Generally speaking really like the idea of radio, p4j, and finally, long waited TigerAce ravamp. But two other abilities could be used diffrently. Not sure if my hothead ideas are correct though.


Well, your "hothead ideas" are exactly the kind of feedback i was hoping for! When i submitted the first version of the concept i felt good about the general theme and i liked exactly the ablities you mentioned too. What looked good on paper was the combination of radio and recon but if you say that there would not be need for this i will happily change it. Same with HEAT (Thanks for your clarification, Sander).

Removing "Recon" / HEAt opens up two more slots, so which abilities should be added?

Maybe you (and the other forum members) can help me to separate the good from the bad ideas, or use some of the abilities for your own wehrmacht design.

Ideas:

  • "Intelligence experts": Early warning and Radio merged to 1 ability ( I love it but 2 ammo free abilities could be problematic)
  • "Extra training":
    - Pz Gren support package (same as the one in German infantry)
    - Pioneer Support Package (would make pios to the wehrmacht's version of heavy sappers)
    - faster repair time (same like heavy sappers)
    - Pios can destroy cover
    - mutually exlusive with Flamethrower but not with Sweeper upgrade)
    - would cost 30 mun
  • Combined Arms (from Heavy Cavalry)
  • Urban Pz Gren Squad
    - 5 men squad
    - starts with 5&MP40
    - can be upgraded with Flamethrower / and 1 STg44
    - can not be upgraded with Schrecks
    - costs 340 / 380 MP
  • Flamethrower Upgrade for standard Pzgrens
  • Upgrade option for tanks:
    - Veteran Tank Crew
    - costs 30 MP
    - grants Self repair

    I worked the whole friday / saturday afternoon on my concept but i could not bring the abilities together in a satisfying way.

    One of the versions i though through looked this way.

  • "Intelligence expertise"
  • Extra training
  • Combined arms
  • PZIV J (OKW version)
  • Tiger Ace (reworked)

    After your feedback i like it more and more.












17 Jan 2019, 17:44 PM
#99
avatar of aerafield

Posts: 2758 | Subs: 4

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Jan 2019, 11:32 AMLuciano
Tank hunter tactics

This commander focuses heavy on destroying enemy vehicles

1st slot:

Anti tank combat package (passive, 0 cp): special anti tank training allows volksgrenadiers to detect nearby enemy vehicles in a certain radio and can be upgraded with 1 panzerschreck per squad for 75 munitions and gives sturmpioners the ability to plant teller mines and riegel mines at vet 3

2nd slot:

Spotting scopes (passive, 5 cp)

3rd slot:

Heat rounds (toggle ability, 7 cp)

4th slot:

Stuka close air support (loiter, 12 cp)

5th slot:

Elefant tank destroyer (call in unit, 14 cp)


It doesnt need a test mod to know that this doctrine would be complete cancer and unfun to play against in 2v2 and upwards :foreveralone:

It's basically like Jaeger Armor doc from Ostheer(which is already super strong and annoying to play vs) with the difference that it's even harder to destroy the elefant now, if not impossible. How can you kill a well coordinated elefant if it gets protected by HEAT-ammo units and JU87 loiters all the time? Also it would mean a comeback of volks- schreckblobs and an elefant that 2-shots almost every single allied tank with HEAT ammo.

Btw spotting scopes is a terribly designed ability that cannot be countered and allows you to spot any enemy flanking attempt (or attack in general) early enough to give you tons of time to react with 0 downsides. I dont think it's a good idea to add this ability to more doctrines in the game @EVERYONE
17 Jan 2019, 23:55 PM
#100
avatar of Luciano

Posts: 712



Did I ask your opinion? :)

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