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Let's speak about OST AT mine

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29 Nov 2018, 00:06 AM
#81
avatar of ferwiner
Donator 11

Posts: 2885



^This

I don't see what is so hard to understand about how these things are similar.

Fine, they are not the EXACT same issue. They are pretty fucking similar, except in one instance your losing a 70+ fuel investment...


They are not that similar. As I said before, the huge difference is that having a sweeper makes you completely teller-proof, even if your screen and attention is somewhere else. With demo you need to follow your squads and spot it and with old demo you need both attention and the sweeper.
29 Nov 2018, 02:17 AM
#82
avatar of TheGentlemenTroll

Posts: 1044 | Subs: 1



They are not that similar. As I said before, the huge difference is that having a sweeper makes you completely teller-proof, even if your screen and attention is somewhere else. With demo you need to follow your squads and spot it and with old demo you need both attention and the sweeper.


Not to mention how impractical moving all your squads together with 1 or 2 sweepers is. Keeping your squads all together like that is basically going to lose you the game and splitting them up like normal will lose you the squads and therefore the game.
29 Nov 2018, 02:49 AM
#83
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

The main power for the s-mimes IS the sign. It means "can't come here to flank" and the enemy knows it so they won't try. They need to clear it or they can pass through without a sweeper (or armour, but that then gives you a cue that it's coming) plus if it's in a hot spot it makes mortars more lethal. S-mines would be bat shit broken without the signs especially since you don't have to put up the whole field.
29 Nov 2018, 02:55 AM
#84
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3422 | Subs: 1


With demo you need to follow your squads and spot it and with old demo you need both attention and the sweeper.


I'm not disputing that it's harder to counter demo, my point is that the loss is of much greater consequence if you don't happen to sweep the teller, which I think offsets that difference.

This leaves the much more relevant issue, which is that both can instant delete full health units. I was a bigger fan of the model capping for demos, and I think the parallel change for the teller would've been nerfing it's damage slightly.

Demos are currently useless, is anyone going to tell me that the teller will become useless if it merely reduces a t70 to 20hp rather than killing it?
29 Nov 2018, 04:24 AM
#85
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279



I'm not disputing that it's harder to counter demo, my point is that the loss is of much greater consequence if you don't happen to sweep the teller, which I think offsets that difference.

This leaves the much more relevant issue, which is that both can instant delete full health units. I was a bigger fan of the model capping for demos, and I think the parallel change for the teller would've been nerfing it's damage slightly.

Demos are currently useless, is anyone going to tell me that the teller will become useless if it merely reduces a t70 to 20hp rather than killing it?

Even if it caused heavy engine damage on lights to validate the cost over a normal mine. The unit would still be as good as dead but still in need of some sort of follow up.
In a similar vein I think the demo simply should have had models capped at 3 so that it could still inflict heavy bleed on a blob but not wipe a lone unit (90mu for say 75mp wouldn't be worth it at all) unless there is support and not be hot garbage like it is now.
29 Nov 2018, 04:46 AM
#86
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3422 | Subs: 1


Even if it caused heavy engine damage on lights to validate the cost over a normal mine. The unit would still be as good as dead but still in need of some sort of follow up.


Thats all I'm after here. And the heavy engine damage for lights makes great sense.
29 Nov 2018, 05:31 AM
#87
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2358

Make teller mines kill the crew inside and do some damage instead of OKH LV's
This way OST can have their own T70 MUAHAHAHAHHAHAHA
:jk:
29 Nov 2018, 07:41 AM
#88
avatar of ElSlayer

Posts: 1605 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Nov 2018, 21:31 PMVipper

You mean like 2 soviet/ukf mines placed one next to other killing a luch or Puma?


Like 2 mines killing 2 gren models for 60 muni total.

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Nov 2018, 21:31 PMVipper

or
you mean like a mine and demo charge killing a Panther as they used to do?

Demo charge doing double damage when it is destroyed (instead of triggered) is a bug which could be fixed.
29 Nov 2018, 08:42 AM
#89
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13472 | Subs: 1



Like 2 mines killing 2 gren models for 60 muni total.
...

2 each and you have a squad wipe for 60 muni, I say it a good deal.

As I posted before I would easily trade Ostheer mine for shcu mines.
29 Nov 2018, 10:16 AM
#90
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Nov 2018, 08:42 AMVipper

2 each and you have a squad wipe for 60 muni, I say it a good deal.

As I posted before I would easily trade Ostheer mine for shcu mines.

The grass isn't always greener. Being able to make sure infantry won't spoil your mines is heavily under rated.
29 Nov 2018, 10:28 AM
#91
avatar of ElSlayer

Posts: 1605 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Nov 2018, 08:42 AMVipper

2 each and you have a squad wipe for 60 muni, I say it a good deal.


No, first model triggers first mine which triggers second mine with its explosion.
Whole squad may be wiped only if it walks in a perfect line in parallel to line of your two mines.
If they don't (e.g. approaching to your mines at some angle) it will take down 2 models most of the time, just like 1 mine would do.

Yes, we had update where they introduced limit on how many models can be killed by a mine, but occassions of full squad wipe were quite rare, at least from my experience. They fixed it because it created unpleasant experience if you are on recieving end, especially if you count in how this game values unit preservation. People tend to remember such moments.

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Nov 2018, 08:42 AMVipper

As I posted before I would easily trade Ostheer mine for shcu mines.


IMO players lay mines mostly to get enemy vehicles, not infantry. T-70 do lot of pressure and costs 70 fuel, so it can't be replaced quickly, so wiping T-70 with teller is better than wiping grens with 2 sov mines (even if you are THAT lucky to actually wipe them).

I would easily trade sov mine for teller just because of that reason.



In a game that is focused so much on unit preservation I'd remove all no-brainer click-and-wipe abilities (except maybe ones that come in latest stage of game). In fact they already did a good job on it:
- precise shot on sov mortars, ML-20, B-4, Katy
- old demos
- nerfing Ele/JT damage
- ST
- generalist mine model kill count cap
- stun shots
29 Nov 2018, 10:31 AM
#92
avatar of ferwiner
Donator 11

Posts: 2885



I'm not disputing that it's harder to counter demo, my point is that the loss is of much greater consequence if you don't happen to sweep the teller, which I think offsets that difference.

This leaves the much more relevant issue, which is that both can instant delete full health units. I was a bigger fan of the model capping for demos, and I think the parallel change for the teller would've been nerfing it's damage slightly.

Demos are currently useless, is anyone going to tell me that the teller will become useless if it merely reduces a t70 to 20hp rather than killing it?


I wouldn't say that is the case. First, even if you only kill single infantry squads with your demos, there are still squads that cost around the same as most expensive LVs. And cheapest LVs also cost similar resources to cheapest infantry squads. Which means the two losses are comparable. Secondly, it was much more common to see two or more squads killed or damaged by a demo than it is in the case of two vehicles. It is simply much easier to pull of. What is more, you can pretty much kill everything you can with a teller with demo, as long as you can make sure your opponent won't spot it. And finally, back in the days you could also increase the damage output of your demo by igniting it without using the detonator, for example by putting a mine under it. All in all, as long as scouting is provided, the old demo offered everything that teller could and more.

As for the solutions. I myself am not a fan of model cap. It didn't work in the case of soviet/universal mines. Why? For two reasons. First is that killing up to 2 models means that with cheaper squads you can actually gain advantage by demining the field with the lifes of your troops. The best example here is ostruppen who are pretty much always wprth less than 30 muni plus the engineer time if the mine is in a good spot. The second problem is that coh2 is all about risk management. Even if soviet mine would deal fatal damage of two models on average, but still had a chance to kill squad, then it would enforce good play forcing players to be more cautios and use sweepers. The damage value would be similar, but the risk would be much greater. As it is now, the risk of stepping on a mine is so small that the mine would be valued more if it could only be detonated by vehicles, couse only then it is worth the effort and cost to place.

Coming back to teller, there are ostheer T1 strategies, that use teller bait as their only hard counter to LVs in the early minutes. They are not easy to pull off, so I wouldn't call them OP, but they are nice to use just for the sake of the number different working approaches that ostheer faction gives to the player. Nerfing the teller would kill these and we need more depth and different working strategies, not less. In my opinion, the teller is expensive enough for as munition starved of a faction as ostheer is, to be well suited for its damage. To place one you have delay medical bunker, flamer, first lmg or save 2 fausts. That is a lot of different early disadvantages you have to agree on just to place a teller in the early game. And you aren't even sure it is going work till you make at least 2.

Btw. The one shot kill abilities are overrated in general. As long as there is valid counterplay that makes it certain your unit is safe, it is a valid ambush tactic and play who loses a squad can only blame himself for beeing too greedy.
29 Nov 2018, 10:34 AM
#93
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13472 | Subs: 1


The grass isn't always greener. Being able to make sure infantry won't spoil your mines is heavily under rated.

"Spoil mines" describing getting a squad wipe from mines explosion is one way of putting it. So the issues that tellar are only trigger by vehicles?

Ok lets allow infantry to trigger tellars , but then pls do not complain about allied infantry being wiped out by mines.
29 Nov 2018, 10:36 AM
#94
avatar of ElSlayer

Posts: 1605 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Nov 2018, 10:34 AMVipper

"Spoil mines" describing getting a squad wipe from mines explosion is one way of putting it. So the issues that tellar are only trigger by vehicles?

Ok lets allow infantry to trigger tellars , but then pls do not complain about allied infantry being wiped out by mines.

No, please, I still like to play Wehrmacht.
29 Nov 2018, 10:37 AM
#95
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13472 | Subs: 1


...
IMO players lay mines mostly to get enemy vehicles, not infantry. T-70 do lot of pressure and costs 70 fuel, so it can't be replaced quickly, so wiping T-70 with teller is better than wiping grens with 2 sov mines (even if you are THAT lucky to actually wipe them).

I would easily trade sov mine for teller just because of that reason.
...

Ostheer do not have T-70 or any other light tank and Soviet have enough PTRS to kill any light vehicles hit a mine.

And I am not even sure what you are suggesting.
29 Nov 2018, 10:46 AM
#96
avatar of ElSlayer

Posts: 1605 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Nov 2018, 10:37 AMVipper

Ostheer do not have T-70 or any other light tank

The last bit of that argument was not about particulary T-70 or light tanks. And not about wiping units. It is about guarantee that you will take out of the game (even temporarily) enemy armour (big investment) instead of infantry (small investment). If soviets would have teller analogue, I'd be glad if Pz.IV or higher would hit it as well.

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Nov 2018, 10:37 AMVipper

and Soviet have enough PTRS to kill any light vehicles hit a mine.

The difference is to have follow-up plan ready and be able to chase down vehicle with damaged engine.
If you have PTRS ready nearby then it is combined arms which is good play.

Teller passively wiping light tanks without follow-up. This is lazy play. Almost as lazy as not sweeping for mines before sending in your light vehicle, but still lazier.

EDIT:

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Nov 2018, 10:37 AMVipper
And I am not even sure what you are suggesting.

Not suggesting. I'm arguing that "just place 2 sov mines next to each other" won't be even close to effect teller does.


If I'd have to make suggestion then here's my thought:
- Continue with trend of removing instant unit wiping abilites and reduce teller damage to 360 (IMO wiping US AA HT is fine, because this unit usually isn't used aggressively e.g. chasing down and wiping enemy infantry)
- Add 3-4 second stun effect (not sure if it is good idea, as it is again effect that takes control of a unit away from player)
- Leave the cost of 50 muni
29 Nov 2018, 10:58 AM
#97
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17830 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Nov 2018, 10:37 AMVipper

Ostheer do not have T-70 or any other light tank and Soviet have enough PTRS to kill any light vehicles hit a mine.

And I am not even sure what you are suggesting.

Following that logic, soviets do not have flame ht and ost has enough shrecks to kill any light tank that hits the mine.
29 Nov 2018, 11:08 AM
#98
avatar of Thamor

Posts: 290

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Nov 2018, 10:58 AMKatitof

Following that logic, soviets do not have flame ht and ost has enough shrecks to kill any light tank that hits the mine.


OST has enough shrecks to kill any light tank...come on Katitof you can do better with your answers. 340mp 100 ammo for 2 shrecks...is about max you can do with OST.
29 Nov 2018, 11:11 AM
#99
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17830 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Nov 2018, 11:08 AMThamor


OST has enough shrecks to kill any light tank...come on Katitof you can do better with your answers. 340mp 100 ammo for 2 shrecks...is about max you can do with OST.

And which light vehicle requires more then 2 volleys(aka 8 seconds) from that to be killed?
Especially if its wounded by stepping on a mine, which you know, is the point of discussion here?
29 Nov 2018, 11:13 AM
#100
avatar of Thamor

Posts: 290

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Nov 2018, 11:11 AMKatitof

And which light vehicle requires more then 2 volleys(aka 8 seconds) from that to be killed?
Especially if its wounded by stepping on a mine, which you know, is the point of discussion here?


You are replying to a flame ht 90 ammo then this topic is about 50 ammo vehicle mine and then you are adding a 100 ammo shrecks. Most here talking the effect of t70 and flame ht early game before first medium tanks start rolling to the field.

Yes you can get shrecks with pgren, but you can forget flame HT then or you can put tellers. It's always a choice with OST as it's so heavy in munitions use.
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