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Soviets are OP

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27 Nov 2018, 12:33 PM
#101
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13449 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Nov 2018, 12:07 PMKatitof


Deterrents, not counters.

FHT will have little problems chasing off PTRS penals when it keeps range.

PTRS isn't going to kill even kubel on their own and AT nades are rarely picked, because cons are rarely picked outside of single doctrine with guards, making AT nades redundant in early game.

Plant a mine.
27 Nov 2018, 12:50 PM
#102
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17793 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Nov 2018, 12:33 PMVipper

Plant a mine.

Go do the same against T-70 instead of complaining about it then.
27 Nov 2018, 13:54 PM
#103
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13449 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Nov 2018, 12:50 PMKatitof

Go do the same against T-70 instead of complaining about it then.

Actually you are complaining. And actually illogically, Soviet have a plethora of ways of dealing with light vehicles.

If you are having trouble dealing with FHT ask for advice.

If in your opinion the T-70 and FHT are similar I suggested you spend less time in forum and more in game.

Have a nice day.
27 Nov 2018, 16:54 PM
#104
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 1392

Soviets are really smooth to play. The only Allii fraction I like to play.

BUUUUUT:

Penals... they are relly op. Sometimes they are simply too good allrounders. With PTRS they shouldn't be able to hit infantry.

My opinion:
-PTRS can't hit inatry. (Gards get an ability for that)
-nerf the weapons a little bit (Mosin-Nagant), give them a 30mun weapon-upgrade for 2 x Tokarew SWT-40 with allows a suppression-ability (like US-pioneers) and give more dps to currenct version.


SU85 would be ok, if StuG G gets 55 range.

T90 would be fine, if Panzergrenadiers get their Schreck-upgrade split, cheaper to tech 1+1 Schreck instead of 2 at same time.

27 Nov 2018, 17:16 PM
#105
avatar of Tactical Imouto

Posts: 172

Permanently Banned
Soviets are really smooth to play. The only Allii fraction I like to play.

BUUUUUT:

Penals... they are relly op. Sometimes they are simply too good allrounders. With PTRS they shouldn't be able to hit infantry.

My opinion:
-PTRS can't hit inatry. (Gards get an ability for that)
-nerf the weapons a little bit (Mosin-Nagant), give them a 30mun weapon-upgrade for 2 x Tokarew SWT-40 with allows a suppression-ability (like US-pioneers) and give more dps to currenct version.


SU85 would be ok, if StuG G gets 55 range.

T90 would be fine, if Panzergrenadiers get their Schreck-upgrade split, cheaper to tech 1+1 Schreck instead of 2 at same time.



Allrounders? lmao. Penals are 300 MP units that you need a building for to even get out. They have good AI as they should with their price, but all rounders? Lol no, PTSR upgrade will make Penals awful and sub-par at best in AI or AT. And guards get an ability for that what? so u want to nerf guards too? Like soviets werent already hanging on by a thread of crutches like t1 spam and guards mostly lmao.

Su-85 costs more and its a TD without a turret, not nearly as spammable as Stug and comes at t4.

Didnt know t90 was in the game, we modern war now.

These posts belong to steam forums
27 Nov 2018, 17:56 PM
#106
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13449 | Subs: 1



Allrounders? lmao. Penals are 300 MP units that you need a building for to even get out...

Easy solution, simply reduce cost and build time and re-balance the unit for new cost.

Penal are currently as powerful as vanilla paratroopers (at range up to 20), a unit that becomes available at CP3 and cost 380 manpower. (it even get better vet bonuses)

It comes with "free" (no tech) AT weapons upgrade and a "free" (no tech) vehicle snare.

It also has some of the most powerful offensives bonuses while its accuracy and moving accuracy allows it to easily squad wipe in retreat.

The unit is simply way too powerful for its time frame.
27 Nov 2018, 18:31 PM
#107
avatar of adamírcz

Posts: 949

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Nov 2018, 17:56 PMVipper

Easy solution, simply reduce cost and build time and re-balance the unit for new cost.

Penal are currently as powerful as vanilla paratroopers (at range up to 20), a unit that becomes available at CP3 and cost 380 manpower. (it even get better vet bonuses)

It comes with "free" (no tech) AT weapons upgrade and a "free" (no tech) vehicle snare.

It also has some of the most powerful offensives bonuses while its accuracy and moving accuracy allows it to easily squad wipe in retreat.

The unit is simply way too powerful for its time frame.

Its hardly free. Its 45 ammo to become useles against infantry, and not that great against vehicles (their PTRSes are still terrible)
How I wish there was an option to spend 45 ammo on unlocking that snare without getting the PTRSes

Also, are u sure theyre that great anti-infantry? They consistently 1vs1 a volks/grens squad in equal cover on all ranges, which is sure nice, but thats it and theyll face at least 1,5X more infantry than the -on penals relying- Soviet will have
27 Nov 2018, 18:51 PM
#108
avatar of Felinewolfie

Posts: 868 | Subs: 5


This is it. This is how it's ALWAYS been. Don't get me wrong Soviet are the strongest they have ever been with more viable units than ever.... But they have alot of overperforming shit


Allies would be more balanced if they had no units whatsoever and if Axis began with 50x
FLAK 88 and FLAK 20 in enemy HQ hammering everything.

Game would be more realistic as Germans are the superior master race.
There was an axis player who boasted 92% win Ratio as OKW. Then things were rebalanced.
Then his win ratio became 70% so he quit. Saying the balance patch had destroyed the game for him.

- Let's go mirror squad balance NOW.
Because this constant nerf/buff whining is annoying as hell.
Grenadier 6x men squad w 1x LMG42. American Rifles w 6x men w 1x M1919A6 upgrade.
Remove Conscripts. Put 6x men Strelski with DP28 LMG upgrade.

Everything the same. Same stats, same commanders, same abilities.
Everything, exactly the same.

No more whining.

... right?

Or just make the game German vs German. Then they can be buffed +10000000% and game still balanced :)
27 Nov 2018, 18:52 PM
#109
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13449 | Subs: 1


Its hardly free. Its 45 ammo to become useles against infantry, and not that great against vehicles (their PTRSes are still terrible)
How I wish there was an option to spend 45 ammo on unlocking that snare without getting the PTRSes

The "free" argument is used allot to describe things that are not side tech. PTRS and satchel snare have no side tech cost. Thus according to this mentality they are "free" (no tech).

(Actually I disagree with this mentality)


Also, are u sure theyre that great anti-infantry? They consistently 1vs1 a volks/grens squad in equal cover on all ranges, which is sure nice, but thats it and theyll face at least 1,5X more infantry than the -on penals relying- Soviet will have

Compare them to paras.

They have been artificially nerfed by increasing build time. I disagree with this approach and design.
28 Nov 2018, 00:46 AM
#110
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

@vipper I wouldn't say the snare is free because it requires the AT package. That's its cost. You don't just get it for teching up, you have to convert them to AT penals. Tbh I think at the very least the AT package should be locked behind the AT nade upgrade in the HQ. Delays things a bit at least.
28 Nov 2018, 08:16 AM
#111
avatar of ElSlayer

Posts: 1605 | Subs: 1

Can anybody calculate Penal squad DPS with and without PTRS and post it here?
Or at least give that link to that famous Cruzz's spreadsheet.
I'd like to compare it to, say, rifles squad with 1 zook.
28 Nov 2018, 09:47 AM
#112
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13449 | Subs: 1

@vipper I wouldn't say the snare is free because it requires the AT package. That's its cost. You don't just get it for teching up, you have to convert them to AT penals. Tbh I think at the very least the AT package should be locked behind the AT nade upgrade in the HQ. Delays things a bit at least.

I wouldn't say that LMG42, rifle-grenades and so on are "free" either you need to invest in BP1 to get them. Some people do call them free and seem to forget what other factions get for "free".
28 Nov 2018, 10:02 AM
#113
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17793 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Nov 2018, 09:47 AMVipper

I wouldn't say that LMG42, rifle-grenades and so on are "free" either you need to invest in BP1 to get them. Some people do call them free and seem to forget what other factions get for "free".

But they are.

You are paying a total of ZERO menpower and ZERO fuel that does not contribute directly to the tech and ost teching isn't anymore expensive then other factions tech.

Yes, you have to spend resources to unlock them.
No, these are not optional side costs making you prioritize your expenses.
Yes, its not free as in you have to invest resources.
But no, it IS free, because not a single point of these resources is specifically spent on them, you are just having them handed to you when you tech up and trying to put it in any other way is just semantics and mental gymnastics.

And don't try to excuse it with "but other factions ...", two wrongs do not make a right.
28 Nov 2018, 10:06 AM
#114
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13449 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Nov 2018, 10:02 AMKatitof


The "free" myth once more...@thedarkarmadillo that is why I simply say PTRS and snares are "free" (no tech).
28 Nov 2018, 11:22 AM
#115
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13449 | Subs: 1

Can anybody calculate Penal squad DPS with and without PTRS and post it here?
Or at least give that link to that famous Cruzz's spreadsheet.
I'd like to compare it to, say, rifles squad with 1 zook.

At your request.

Ranges 0/10/20/30/40(for PTRS)

penal squad 31.1/26.6/18.7/13.1
penal_troops_svt_rifle_mp vet2 41.8/36.5/26.6/18.9
penal_troops_svt_rifle_mp vet3 45.9/41.3/33.6/24.6

m1_garand_rifle_rifleman_mp 33.8/21.7/14.0/9.9
m1_garand_rifle_rifleman_mp vet2 36.7/23.2/15.0/10.6
m1_garand_rifle_rifleman_mp vet 3 47.8/30.2/19.5/13.8

Note penal SVT get accuracy over 100% even at mid range by vet 3. Note that by vet 3 Penal have almost 180% more far DPS than riflemen.


-----
PTRS weapon
ptrs_41_mp 0.4/0.4/0.3/0.2/0.2
ptrs_41_mp vet2 0.6/0.5/0.4/0.3/0.2
ptrs_41_mp vet2 0.8/0.7/0.6/0.4/0.3

PTRS Penal 21.6/18.5/13.1/9.2/0.3
PTRS Penal vet 2 29.1/25.4/18.6/13.3/0.5
PTRS Penal vet 3 32.2/28.9/23.5/17.3/0.6


riflemen bazooka 27.1/17.3/11.2/7.9
riflemen bazooka vet2 29.4/18.6/12.0/8.5
riflemen bazooka vet3 38.2/24.2/15.6/11.0

I have put bazooka damage to 0 so riflemen number are a bit lower.

Not that PTRS penal by vet have better far DPS than even vanilla riflemen, while having more HP.

The main down side of PTRS Penal is the drop in DPS when they start loosing entities.

Cruzz file:
https://coh2db.com/stats/

Note that number maybe be a bit different since I am using Relic spreed sheet so I can easier calculate vet bonuses. The ratios though for comparison reasons should be very close.


Number do not into account the Vet 1 Penal ability.
28 Nov 2018, 13:36 PM
#116
avatar of ElSlayer

Posts: 1605 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Nov 2018, 11:22 AMVipper

At your request.

[...]

Thank you. This is interesting.
28 Nov 2018, 13:38 PM
#117
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13449 | Subs: 1


Thank you. This is interesting.

Your welcomed, glad that I could help.s

Generally speaking many Soviet units have very strong vet bonuses (a left over of older days) and get very powerful once vetted with the buffs they have received. That includes the 76mm Sherman ,Su-76, Su-85, PPsh conscripts...
28 Nov 2018, 14:27 PM
#118
avatar of ElSlayer

Posts: 1605 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Nov 2018, 13:38 PMVipper

Your welcomed, glad that I could help.s

Generally speaking many Soviet units have very strong vet bonuses (a left over of older days) and get very powerful once vetted with the buffs they have received. That includes the 76mm Sherman ,Su-76, Su-85, PPsh conscripts...

Well, I wouldn't say that Riflemen vet bonuses are bad in comparison to Penals. They get better RA (and start with better RA too), can have AT-snare from vet while having option to still be completely AI unit (double bars).

And conscripts vet was buffed/reworked only recently (depends on how long ago you meant saying "older days" though).

Basically, cons are purely defensive/support unit,
penals are damage dealers and survive long enough purely because of high total HP,
riflemen are all-rounder with different options for upgrades which can result in high AI efficiency too while having good RA.
28 Nov 2018, 14:29 PM
#119
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3557 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Nov 2018, 10:06 AMVipper

The "free" myth once more...@thedarkarmadillo that is why I simply say PTRS and snares are "free" (no tech).


Weird to say in the same sentence that freebe are a myth but PTRS are free.
28 Nov 2018, 14:41 PM
#120
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17793 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Nov 2018, 13:38 PMVipper

Your welcomed, glad that I could help.s

Generally speaking many Soviet units have very strong vet bonuses (a left over of older days) and get very powerful once vetted with the buffs they have received. That includes the 76mm Sherman ,Su-76, Su-85, PPsh conscripts...


Soviet units also have no weapon upgrades that improve basic role of the units and the one that does exist is locked behind doctrine.

You yourself have said yesterday that units should be balanced at vet3 as well as vet0.

Well, cons have no upgade, so they need to be balanced against vet3 lmg grens and vet5 StG volks.
Same applies to penals who have no role enhancing upgrade and are 100% reliant on vet for scaling, while all of axis stock infantry does have that kind of upgrade or a stock weapon that already is the top tier of its kind(PG StGs).

Doctrines can't be included here unless you specifically talk about certain doctrinal unit, not upgrade, because you can have a unit without that upgrade and it needs to scale as well.
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