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russian armor

Volks are disgustingly good, need toning down.

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24 Oct 2018, 19:06 PM
#101
avatar of Rubberluck

Posts: 33

Excluding fuel costs of additional enhancements to baseline infantry, there's no denying that Volks are in an incredibly strong spot right now. 250 manpower for a squad that can effectively outnumber and outperform most allied infantry with limited exceptions is not a point of contention by most top players. We've seen examples of this time and time again.

When you've got allied base infantry at 280 manpower, you're talking a significant difference of anywhere between 90-150 manpower just to field your first 3 squads, not including the already heavy hitting first sturmpio squad you get compared to REs or Soviet combat engies. That's a 10-15 second head start that OKW gets on you from the beginning, snowballing fast.

I think making volks marginally more expensive to field (perhaps 260mp) but leaving their stats will slow that running start and prevent massive blobs from setting up on your cutoffs 3 minutes into the game.
24 Oct 2018, 20:27 PM
#102
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1193



When you've got allied base infantry at 280 manpower, you're talking a significant difference of anywhere between 90-150 manpower just to field your first 3 squads, not including the already heavy hitting first sturmpio squad you get compared to REs or Soviet combat engies. That's a 10-15 second head start that OKW gets on you from the beginning, snowballing fast.


Makes no sense to me, OKW starts with much less mp to make up for the sturm high cost, so the starting advantage totally depends on how much sturms can make the nemey bleed in the single small timespan where it's actually a worthy cqb squad.

Also all infantry squads but unupgraded cons and late game penals perform better. We can debate on performance/cost...but outpermorming allied WFA infantry ? Not even against a single bar/bren, especially with the low combat veterancy bonuses volks get.
24 Oct 2018, 20:31 PM
#103
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 16589 | Subs: 8



Makes no sense to me, OKW starts with much less mp to make up for the sturm high cost

That's bullshit, OKW got free 100 extra MP to compensate for that.
Read up on patch notes.

Also all infantry squads but unupgraded cons and late game penals perform better. We can debate on performance/cost...but outpermorming allied WFA infantry ? Not even against a single bar/bren, especially with the low combat veterancy bonuses volks get.

Its the price of decent weapons and tons of utility.
Remember, you're still comparing engineer/repair/builder unit to mainline infantries here.
24 Oct 2018, 20:55 PM
#104
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 10503 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Oct 2018, 20:31 PMKatitof

That's bullshit, OKW got free 100 extra MP to compensate for that.
Read up on patch notes.


Its the price of decent weapons and tons of utility.
Remember, you're still comparing engineer/repair/builder unit to mainline infantries here.

Actually OKW got 100 more manpower to compensate for SWS costing 100/15 instead of being free.
24 Oct 2018, 21:02 PM
#105
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1193

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Oct 2018, 20:31 PMKatitof

That's bullshit, OKW got free 100 extra MP to compensate for that.
Read up on patch notes.


Its the price of decent weapons and tons of utility.
Remember, you're still comparing engineer/repair/builder unit to mainline infantries here.


"Hurr durr free mp"

Treatment that received UKF at the same time, because both factions field an high upkeep unit that hampers the early game.
That is made exactly to balance that.

Too bad the bias-o-meter is spiking and you couldn't scroll the changelog a bit more before writing this post.

-------------------------------

Tons of what utility ? Are you joking ?
Combat engies can become an effective anti garrison or become minesweepers, plant demo, plant trip wires...

What utility has sturm exactly ? Being a trashy at squad that nobody ever use ? An expensive repair squad that you can't double to afford better repairs without paying 600 mp ?

No, the only thing going for them is their early pushing power, that apparently is an issue for soviets except not a single source has been provided and we all know soviet win rate in gcs. Remove early stg power and they become the most useless mine sweepers.

What we are comparing is irrelevant, those "engineers" cost more than any allied mainline squad but penals. Incredibly Stupid argument
24 Oct 2018, 21:03 PM
#106
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 16589 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Oct 2018, 20:55 PMVipper

Actually OKW got 100 more manpower to compensate for SWS costing 100/15 instead of being free.

Not really, they got 100 more manpower so they can start building first unit instantly instead of waiting couple of seconds due to SP cost subtracting from initial mp.

SwS costing manpower is simply there to normalize manpower investment on teching as OKW was extremely mp light on tech costs, getting most freebies for least cost and prevent abuse of no cost trucks as ram vehicles to push inf in early game.
24 Oct 2018, 21:07 PM
#107
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 10503 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Oct 2018, 21:03 PMKatitof

Not really, they got 100 more manpower so they can start building first unit instantly instead of waiting couple of seconds due to SP cost subtracting from initial mp.

SwS costing manpower is simply there to normalize manpower investment on teching as OKW was extremely mp light on tech costs, getting most freebies for least cost and prevent abuse of no cost trucks as ram vehicles to push inf in early game.

10 manpower would be enough to start building immediately if that was the reason, the 90 manpower more is simply not justified. Now I am not in mood to argue a pointless thing and end up in derailing another thread.
BB now.
24 Oct 2018, 21:18 PM
#108
avatar of Tobis
Senior Strategist Badge
Donator 11

Posts: 2228 | Subs: 4

not a point of contention by most top players. We've seen examples of this time and time again.

Can you show me some top players saying this?
24 Oct 2018, 22:01 PM
#109
avatar of Rubberluck

Posts: 33

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Oct 2018, 21:18 PMTobis

Can you show me some top players saying this?


Sorry Tobis, you don't count. :P

Jokes aside, flip through this thread, there's some salient points made by players far better than myself about the matter. I'm just contributing my 2 cents.
24 Oct 2018, 22:42 PM
#110
avatar of Jae For Jett
Senior Strategist Badge

Posts: 1000 | Subs: 1



Sorry Tobis, you don't count. :P

Jokes aside, flip through this thread, there's some salient points made by players far better than myself about the matter. I'm just contributing my 2 cents.

I know people have different definitions of "top player," but I think its extremely safe to say that none of the posters, with the possible exception of Finndeed, would be considered top players by anyone.
24 Oct 2018, 23:14 PM
#111
avatar of Rubberluck

Posts: 33


I know people have different definitions of "top player," but I think its extremely safe to say that none of the posters, with the possible exception of Finndeed, would be considered top players by anyone.


Findeed is exactly who I'm referencing. The rest of the rabble I can't speak for.
25 Oct 2018, 07:29 AM
#112
avatar of insaneHoshi

Posts: 911



Findeed is exactly who I'm referencing. The rest of the rabble I can't speak for.


So when you said "most top players" you really meant "one top player"?
25 Oct 2018, 15:17 PM
#113
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 7766 | Subs: 2

Makes no sense to me, OKW starts with much less mp to make up for the sturm high cost, so the starting advantage totally depends on how much sturms can make the nemey bleed in the single small timespan where it's actually a worthy cqb squad.


Still, OKW starts with the highest MP value.

SU: CE + 350mp
OH: Pio + 420mp (+60 in order to help basically against USF)
USF: RET* + 400mp
OKW: SP + 340mp (+100 after rework to account for SwS)
UKF: IS + 340mp (+50 after release cause they suck hard on 1v1)

*Argueably not worthy the 200mp cost if they couldn't wield dual weapons. They nerf them to avoid late game spam.


The current situation makes the SP been able to bully any of the starting units while still been able to afford Volks at a greater pace than the opponent can field their respective infantry.
IMO the most elegant solution is to reduce the starting mp by 50mp, while reducing the cost of SwS by -25mp.
25 Oct 2018, 16:46 PM
#114
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1193



Still, OKW starts with the highest MP value.

SU: CE + 350mp
OH: Pio + 420mp (+60 in order to help basically against USF)
USF: RET* + 400mp
OKW: SP + 340mp (+100 after rework to account for SwS)
UKF: IS + 340mp (+50 after release cause they suck hard on 1v1)

*Argueably not worthy the 200mp cost if they couldn't wield dual weapons. They nerf them to avoid late game spam.


The current situation makes the SP been able to bully any of the starting units while still been able to afford Volks at a greater pace than the opponent can field their respective infantry.
IMO the most elegant solution is to reduce the starting mp by 50mp, while reducing the cost of SwS by -25mp.

Reasonable enough
25 Oct 2018, 17:38 PM
#115
avatar of RoastinGhost

Posts: 385 | Subs: 1

I think the StG44 upgrade is a bit too good.
An MG42 for Volks would be interesting if it were doctrinal.
25 Oct 2018, 18:04 PM
#116
avatar of TheGentlemenTroll

Posts: 1020 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Oct 2018, 10:52 AMGrim
I don't see a massive problem with volks other than they are very spamable in team games (although that may be due to OKW starting with more MP).

Maybe a slight cost increase or locking the STG until a certain vet is reached? I think the STG is all reward and zero risk at the moment so that is some issue.


Yeah OKW gets volks squads so fast due to the higher MP. If anything I think a decrease in starting mp would be nice rather than nerfing the mainline infantry of OKW.
25 Oct 2018, 19:17 PM
#117
avatar of TwistedTootsy

Posts: 30

I think volks need a nerf. I believe their problem is both appearing and re-appearing on the field too quickly. You may beat back a volk squad, but they'll be back on the field more quickly than other squads of the allies faction (with the exception of conscripts which are generally weaker than the volks mid-late game). Additionally, OKW can do strong early game aggression by quickly rushing a point with their sturms to then be backed up by volks. While giving an advantage and reward with risky behaviour, OKW is not too punished by this risky behaviour because the next volk squads can come out quickly and cap home territories, allowing the OKW to have enough map control while also being aggressive. There SHOULD be an oppurtunity cost to this or risk/reward system, but there is currently not.

I believe the best way to balance this system therefore is by increasing build times of volksgrenadiers to reduce BOTH early game aggression and home-point capping so the player must choose one only, as every other faction must do to engage in risk/reward behaviour. Additionally, the reinforcement times for volks should probably be increased by 2-3 seconds because they re-appear on the field too quickly as mainline infantry who are also enhanced by a weapon upgrade (that is omni-useful at all ranges.)

It's important to note that this problem of OKW being too good at early aggression while also being able to cap home-territory in a timely manner is a problem actually caused by them having an extremely capable sturmpioneer squad at the start which verily outperforms other engi units and is perfect for rushing due to starting with them instead of needing to build them. It's just that the best solution is to actually nerf volksgrenadiers build and reinforce time.

Oh and playercard https://www.coh2.org/ladders/playercard/steamid/76561198045698939
26 Oct 2018, 05:21 AM
#118
avatar of LeOverlord

Posts: 306

And the Allies laughed. Because the Allies know.

Wanna deal with hordes of Volksgrenadiers? BLOB! Some people will say "oh, he will bring AI and will destroy your blob", and to that i say "i doesn't matter. At all". Losing the game? Wipe as many squads as possible! Are you playing as USF? Spam Riflemen, equip them with both LMG and BAR, or pick Heavy Cavalry OR Recon Support. Did you know that the Paratrooper bois from Recon support have a beautiful ability called Covering fire? Oh, did he bring more Volks in the field? You'll already have vet 2 or even 3 infantry. Checkmate VG spam!

Are you playing as Russians? Guards and Shock Troops, plus T-70 are your best buddies. What? Did he bring 3 squads against your 2 Shock Troops? No problem my boi, you get up close and personal.

And finally, are you playing as UKF? Those Commando bois and the amazing Centaur AA MkII is your best friends.
26 Oct 2018, 10:36 AM
#119
avatar of Tactical Imouto

Posts: 172

Permanently Banned


Still, OKW starts with the highest MP value.

SU: CE + 350mp
OH: Pio + 420mp (+60 in order to help basically against USF)
USF: RET* + 400mp
OKW: SP + 340mp (+100 after rework to account for SwS)
UKF: IS + 340mp (+50 after release cause they suck hard on 1v1)

*Argueably not worthy the 200mp cost if they couldn't wield dual weapons. They nerf them to avoid late game spam.


The current situation makes the SP been able to bully any of the starting units while still been able to afford Volks at a greater pace than the opponent can field their respective infantry.
IMO the most elegant solution is to reduce the starting mp by 50mp, while reducing the cost of SwS by -25mp.


Why do Soviets always get the shortest stick in everything? Especially with that ostheer MP and what not while having worst mainline
26 Oct 2018, 14:37 PM
#120
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2358

the amount of nonesense in this thread is too damn high!
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