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russian armor

lets talk about panzerfusiller

19 Oct 2018, 07:06 AM
#61
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 2242

i dont want to delete armor with volks. all okw want is handheld AT option which can push back armor...and dont suggest schreck on stpio. they are the only mobile rep, mine layer/ searcher unit that okw has.
giving them as 4model squad a schreck ..which has horrible accurracy on far and mid range...isnt a soultion.

why can all other allie faction equip almost all of their mainline and even pios give handheld at...(some with docs) but on axis it would be Op when one mainline unit can get 1 single zook?

Really?
19 Oct 2018, 07:35 AM
#62
avatar of A. Soldier

Posts: 3094 | Subs: 2

A final note for the actually productive contributors to this thread:

Always think of ways your suggestions could go wrong (dont make an abusable unit).

Try to avoid ideas that sound super cool in theory, but have no real use in practice. Not everything has to be meta/top tier/competitively viable, but there should at least be a case or situation where the player feels compelled to get this unit. (Seriously, you don't realize how many ideas sounded great until someone rightfully threw out the word "overlap")

Avoid unnecessarily complex changes. We all know how coh2 plays and feels, so suggestions should stay along the lines of this feel. We ALSO know how little clarity coh2 has behind its mechanics and weapons, try not to reduce the already small amount of clarity and uniformity coh2 has behind its systems (for example, panzerfausts and AT nades are snares).

Thank you to all of you who contribute your ideas, especially those of you who do so with open minds. As a member of this community, I appreciate it when there are earnest attempts to better the game.


Excuse me for derailing here a bit but I just wanted to know some opinions outside of Andy's vague explanation about not implementing Planet Smasher's Artillery Pit into the game to fix the final faulty link the British Army.

It's unique, it's practical and balanced and like I said, it's 3 birds with one stone really in it's execution.

I'm just wondering why not fix the British fully instead of only touching 50% of the issue that's all, I mean sure it won't make the Brits this super duper Army that everyone will start choosing all of the sudden but at least it will make them more viable and I'm sure that at least a test would prove that.

Edit: I also wanted to say that it feels alright with how the British are designed as well and doesn't drag off from the core feeling of CoH2 really.
19 Oct 2018, 14:39 PM
#63
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1660

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Oct 2018, 19:52 PMKatitof

Pfussies get 3 G43s.

If we pretend to ignore panther, which is specifically designed to counter high armor targets that is.
Just because its not called TD in the sense other TDs are, due to its ability to effectively engage infantry, doesn't mean its not top tier vehicle designed primarly to counter other vehicles with high armor specifically.


You are being delusional right now.
TOP Tier means that is build in Tier 4.
Jagdpanzer 4 is a top tier TD, like it or not.
19 Oct 2018, 15:39 PM
#64
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 3047



You are being delusional right now.
TOP Tier means that is build in Tier 4.
Jagdpanzer 4 is a top tier TD, like it or not.

His language was unclear and I don’t know if he meant it this way, but “top tier” can denote “the best” “the most superior” etc. By the definition of top tier you stated, the major, a 3 man squad with 2 rear echelon M1 carbines and an M1911 pistol, is a, nay, the, top tier usf infantry squad. Semantics are weird XD
19 Oct 2018, 15:49 PM
#65
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13354 | Subs: 1


His language was unclear and I don’t know if he meant it this way, but “top tier” can denote “the best” “the most superior” etc. By the definition of top tier you stated, the major, a 3 man squad with 2 rear echelon M1 carbines and an M1911 pistol, is a, nay, the, top tier usf infantry squad. Semantics are weird XD

I have to point out that Major is an officer squad not an infantry squad.
19 Oct 2018, 15:52 PM
#66
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 3047

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Oct 2018, 15:49 PMVipper

I have to point out that Major is an officer squad not an infantry squad.

Meh. Point still stands about the designation of “top tier” being unclear. The sherman is technically (by in game definition) the usf top tier medium, but by the literal definition of top tier, the sherman 76mm or easy 8 would probably be considered the top tier usf medium.
19 Oct 2018, 16:53 PM
#67
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3164 | Subs: 7


His language was unclear and I don’t know if he meant it this way, but “top tier” can denote “the best” “the most superior” etc. By the definition of top tier you stated, the major, a 3 man squad with 2 rear echelon M1 carbines and an M1911 pistol, is a, nay, the, top tier usf infantry squad. Semantics are weird XD


For a better comparison, tying the definition of 'top tier vehicle' to tech would state that the M8 Scott is a top tier vehicle for the USF and is equal to a Brummbär.

Instead 'top tier' should obviously be defined by the level of power of a unit within the faction roster or the game in general.
19 Oct 2018, 19:31 PM
#68
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17623 | Subs: 9


His language was unclear and I don’t know if he meant it this way, but “top tier” can denote “the best” “the most superior” etc. By the definition of top tier you stated, the major, a 3 man squad with 2 rear echelon M1 carbines and an M1911 pistol, is a, nay, the, top tier usf infantry squad. Semantics are weird XD

19 Oct 2018, 20:25 PM
#69
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3504 | Subs: 1

T34-76 is a top tier tank, i can tell you that!
19 Oct 2018, 20:55 PM
#70
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

Top tier and final tier aren't interchangeable. Is t0 called bottom tier? I know conscripts are bottom tier infantry, but they are Also t0. is the Maxim of greater caliber than the mg42 because it comes from a tech building and costs the same? No! (even though grens are better than cons despite the same......) is the werfers a better rocket arty than the walking stuka? Is the T34 of the caliber of a panther?.. Is this REALLY a balance discussion? Like were all here talking about this? Bloody fuck.
20 Oct 2018, 11:00 AM
#71
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1660


His language was unclear and I don’t know if he meant it this way, but “top tier” can denote “the best” “the most superior” etc. By the definition of top tier you stated, the major, a 3 man squad with 2 rear echelon M1 carbines and an M1911 pistol, is a, nay, the, top tier usf infantry squad. Semantics are weird XD


Top tier means top tier, the rest is poor deflecting.

And yes, a nondoc free squad that can call nondoc offmap arty and recon and serve as free mobile FRP to pair with ambulance is top tier
20 Oct 2018, 11:02 AM
#72
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17623 | Subs: 9



Top tier means top tier, the rest is poor deflecting.

And yes, a nondoc free squad that can call nondoc offmap arty and recon and serve as free mobile FRP to pair with ambulance is top tier

If you honestly do believe JP4 is the same power level as Panther, then I don't think you should be allowed anywhere near balance forums.

Do you also believe cromwell and comet are same level of power? They are same tier after all.
20 Oct 2018, 11:03 AM
#73
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1660

Top tier and final tier aren't interchangeable. Is t0 called bottom tier? I know conscripts are bottom tier infantry, but they are Also t0. is the Maxim of greater caliber than the mg42 because it comes from a tech building and costs the same? No! (even though grens are better than cons despite the same......) is the werfers a better rocket arty than the walking stuka? Is the T34 of the caliber of a panther?.. Is this REALLY a balance discussion? Like were all here talking about this? Bloody fuck.


Top tier has nothing to do with sheer power but tech tree allocation.

It's absolutely not pure semantics because behind that there's an higher teching cost. The moment su76 and jp4 will come at the exact same time Katitof REEEEEing will be justified
20 Oct 2018, 11:06 AM
#74
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1660

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Oct 2018, 11:02 AMKatitof

If you honestly do believe JP4 is the same power level as Panther, then I don't think you should be allowed anywhere near balance forums.

Do you also believe cromwell and comet are same level of power? They are same tier after all.


I just said that top tier DOES NOT reflect unit power, but teching cost and arrival time

Or you think we can put su76 in Tier 4, since there's no difference apparently ?

Comet comes far later because behind a subtech.
20 Oct 2018, 11:14 AM
#75
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17623 | Subs: 9



I just said that top tier DOES NOT reflect unit power, but teching cost and arrival time

Or you think we can put su76 in Tier 4, since there's no difference apparently ?

Comet comes far later because behind a subtech.

You already had it explained to you that I wasn't talking about "top tier" as in T3 T4 or T10, but in the context of "there is nothing stronger in that category".

Why do you feel the need to drag it and argue semantics and pretend JP4 and panther are of same strength, when your very own definition in this very post I quote now contradicts that?
20 Oct 2018, 11:19 AM
#76
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1660

As said before, changes to pfussies were discussed. For various reasons, they did not go through (well to begin with, the decision was to not switch them in for Elite Armor's signal relay; this would have given us the scope to alter them).

Regardless, the take aways from these conversations were that:

-Schrecks and AT rifles (or any other weird AT options you could come up with) would not work - sturms already have schrecks and AT rifles are pretty weak in general (notice how the only faction that has them is the only faction with no other access to handheld AT).

-Whatever the changes were, they had to try as hard as possible to avoid making OKW's early game stronger - this is for obvious reasons.

And, honestly, that kind of eliminates most suggestions here.

For whoever is wondering, the final proposed change to pfusis (if I recall correctly) were that they would be buildable from t0 at 0 cp, cost 280 (? I think), start at 5 men and earn their 6th with vet, and have their g43s + snares + nades locked behind their first tech structure (just like volks stgs + panzerfausts). I really don't think pfusis in this weird repair/utility role would work - OKW doesn't exactly lack in the repair department, and Breakthrough doctrine even already has a capping ability. Having them in an AT role was already addressed previously in my post, but I should also note that we were cautious about anything that could bring back something akin to old volks blobbing. To actually explain the changes, pfusis are a mainline replacement infantry that comes too late to actually replace the mainline. The changes aimed to give OKW, a faction with an oppressive early game and mainline infantry that falls off late game, the option to trade their early game power for mainline infantry that could actually scale really well into the late game, and the changes probably actually work to that end.


This +1

Basically give OKW the option of a slower WFA allies mainline start without the nonsensically OP 6 men g43 terminator
20 Oct 2018, 11:19 AM
#77
avatar of ikab

Posts: 40

Fusiliers are the best unit in the game, anybody who tells you otherwise is a nerd.

Who wouldn't want 2 CP volks? No I mean literally they're 2 CP volks, their DPS profile is exactly the same. Did I mention that the G43 is worse than the STG at almost very range except very close? Volks ->>> Dumpstered. They get flares but a better doctrine (Spec ops) gets even better flares for cheaper.

So in summary Fusiliers are the best unit in the game. 70% chance ur a nerd if u think otherwise. NO buff needed.

Edit: Looking at the unit more seriously, it is impossible to make this unit better for the reasons Jae covered. OKW already get amazing early game and then Obers late game. Very difficult to give them anything in between, especially in the doctrine that gives OKW Jagdtiger.
20 Oct 2018, 11:23 AM
#78
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1660

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Oct 2018, 11:14 AMKatitof

You already had it explained to you that I wasn't talking about "top tier" as in T3 T4 or T10, but in the context of "there is nothing stronger in that category".

Why do you feel the need to drag it and argue semantics and pretend JP4 and panther are of same strength, when your very own definition in this very post I quote now contradicts that?


Funny how you are backpedaling over semantic while accusing me of talking semantic. Outside of any definition of yours you could give, top tiers means allocated to the highest cost structure, just like chair means chair regardless of you calling a table chair.

If you really think su76 and jp4 are on the same levels and one the counterpart of each other then what's the issue with those being behind the same teching cost uh ?
21 Oct 2018, 21:16 PM
#79
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279



Top tier has nothing to do with sheer power but tech tree allocation.

It's absolutely not pure semantics because behind that there's an higher teching cost. The moment su76 and jp4 will come at the exact same time Katitof REEEEEing will be justified

top tier can be interpreted either way. it IS semantics. the t34 is NOT a top tier tank, but it is in the final tier of tech. see how that works? the flammenhetzer isnt a better flame vehcle than the ost flame HT, the flame HT is absoulty a op tier garrison melter, yet its in t2....



a top tier commander means its better than the rest, the top tier of a cake is the highest level. the katy is a final tier rocket arty, the walking stuka is a top tier rocket arty. the maxim is a higher tech machine gun, but the mg42 is top tier.

context.
23 Oct 2018, 17:05 PM
#80
avatar of leithianz

Posts: 472

why not on a 5model squad which cost 280-300mp? remember: mostly all allie faction can get much cheaper double handheld infantery...mostly nondoc!

and schrecks only fearable when in near and midrange...on far range they hit nearly nothing and axis have only access to schrecks on expansive 4model squads...

i didnt understand why schrecks was removed from volks insteadt nerv their dmg/ effective.

every faction should have access to good / effective handheld at.

dont come with st pios...upgrading them with schrecks is a shoot in the own knee in most cases


Don't forget schreclks have highest dmg AND penetration among all other anti tank infantry weapon.
If they comes out as suggested, I bet all OKW will spam 2~3 pf + 0~2 raket that can destory all alli car/tank line in 3vs3 or 4vs4
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