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17 Oct 2018, 13:03 PM
#1681
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

If King Tiger becomes exclusive to Elite Armor it can be balanced towards a mobile Tiger-like unit with more armor but higher cost.


Retroactively locking a stock unit behind a paid-for doctrine, especially one as well known as the King Tiger, might not go down well. It might not even be legal.
17 Oct 2018, 13:04 PM
#1682
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Oct 2018, 13:03 PMLago


Retroactively locking a stock unit behind a paid-for doctrine, especially one as well known as the King Tiger, might not go down well. It might not even be legal.


Sturmtiger used to be stock unit.

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Oct 2018, 13:02 PMSmartie


You think other units doesnt deserve improvements because IS-2 is also too weak? LOL great logic! Lets stop the discussion here.
But -hey- i still wait for you to deliver ideas to improve "overwatch" and "elite armor" without giving Wehrmachts units to OKW.


The Elite Armor was improved greatly.
HEAT was always a great ability, ST is still a very potent unit, 221 is interesting addition giving another light option with utility for early game, worst thing about the doctrine, tank commander barrage was buffed(delay made it completely useless prior to that) and emergency repairs got a massive buff as well.

You however seem to be completely missing the point of commander.
Its -NOT- supposed to give you super tank. Its supposed to make your armor less dependent of your infantry and increase their potency, which it does.

I'm not going to talk about overwatch, because I never played with it a lot, its goliath only for me from that doc.
17 Oct 2018, 13:07 PM
#1683
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Oct 2018, 13:04 PMKatitof
Sturmtiger used to be stock unit.


It's a fairly obscure unit and they replaced it with something else.

Don't get me wrong, Relic probably could lock the King Tiger to Elite Armoured. But I doubt they will when it'd be such a poor PR move.
17 Oct 2018, 13:20 PM
#1684
avatar of Smartie

Posts: 838 | Subs: 1

Elite Armor was improved greatly.
HEAT was always a great ability, ST is still a very potent unit, 221 is interesting addition giving another light option with utility for early game, worst thing about the doctrine, tank commander barrage was buffed(delay made it completely useless prior to that) and emergency repairs got a massive buff as well.

You however seem to be completely missing the point of commander.
Its -NOT- supposed to give you super tank. Its supposed to make your armor less dependent of your infantry and increase their potency, which it does.


I'm not going to talk about overwatch, because I never played with it a lot, its goliath only for me from that doc.


Well, we can agree that Elite armor was improved a lot and i acknowledged this in almost every post regarding this doctrine. So no need for dispute here. But i certainly disagree with you about the "point of the commander". If ELITE ARMOR DOESNT DESERVE AN ELITE HEAVY CALL-IN which doctrine does?

Regarding "Overwatch":
The goliath is never used in team games. I tried to watch as much games in the CR tourney as possible but the unit was not build in 1 game. Its like Sander said: "Overwatch" needs drastic
changes.
17 Oct 2018, 13:39 PM
#1685
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3164 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Oct 2018, 12:39 PMKatitof
If you people want so much to play ost, why won't you just play ost instead of trying to make OKW even more of its clone?


That's because OKW has major gaps in its stock lineup. No early light vehicle, no proper AT gun, no proper AT infantry, no proper non-super heavy tank and no late game AI tank.

Now some of this could be solved by adding new units, such as the Jagdpanther or tank buster infantry, which would obviously have been preferred. But new models are out of the question, sadly. So all that is left is to look at Ostheer for cross-over units, because that faction has almost everything that OKW lacks.

Ostheer solutions:
No early light harassment vehicles - 221 (added already)
No proper AT gun - Pak 40
No proper AT infantry - Panzershreck Pgrens
No proper non-super heavy tank - Tiger I
No late game AI tank - Brummbär


I find it only logical to use some of Ostheer's units in OKW commanders to fill some of the major gaps this faction has. It gives players the choice to supplement the faction to their own needs.
17 Oct 2018, 13:54 PM
#1686
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 2241

Isnt it funny? to argue that okw shouldnet get ost units (lefh) but suggest that okw could get a tiger I?
17 Oct 2018, 13:54 PM
#1687
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8



That's because OKW has major gaps in its stock lineup. No early light vehicle, no proper AT gun, no proper AT infantry, no proper non-super heavy tank and no late game AI tank.

Now some of this could be solved by adding new units, such as the Jagdpanther or tank buster infantry, which would obviously have been preferred. But new models are out of the question, sadly. So all that is left is to look at Ostheer for cross-over units, because that faction has almost everything that OKW lacks.

And these gaps are filled with other units you have chosen to completely ignore.
OKW isn't going to be "fixed" by making it ost with trucks.

Ostheer solutions:
No early light harassment vehicles - 221 (added already)

There is Kubel for map control and AA HT for shock light.

No proper AT gun - Pak 40

Puppchen is full of cheese though with its camo creep, there is also fastest arriving AT vehicle in form of Puma.

No proper AT infantry - Panzershreck Pgrens

Soviets were living, breving proof that you don't need that, current OKW is proof that you still don't need that and 1 shreck is still much more effective then 2 PTRS.

No proper non-super heavy tank - Tiger I

You may not like KT, but you can't ignore it.
Brits do not have such a heavy tank either.
Pershing is very arguable, packs a punch, but can't take any.
IS-2 is a meme for much longer then KT.

No late game AI tank - Brummbär

Obers are a thing.
AI is one thing OKW doesn't lack in at any stage of the game.


I find it only logical to use some of Ostheer's units in OKW commanders to fill some of the major gaps this faction has. It gives players the choice to supplement the faction to their own needs.
17 Oct 2018, 13:57 PM
#1688
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 2241

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Oct 2018, 13:54 PMKatitof

And these gaps are filled with other units you have chosen to completely ignore.
OKW isn't going to be "fixed" by making it ost with trucks.


There is Kubel for map control and AA HT for shock light.


Puppchen is full of cheese though with its camo creep, there is also fastest arriving AT vehicle in form of Puma.


Soviets were living, breving proof that you don't need that, current OKW is proof that you still don't need that and 1 shreck is still much more effective then 2 PTRS.


You may not like KT, but you can't ignore it.
Brits do not have such a heavy tank either.


Obers are a thing.
AI is one thing OKW doesn't lack in at any stage of the game.


I find it only logical to use some of Ostheer's units in OKW commanders to fill some of the major gaps this faction has. It gives players the choice to supplement the faction to their own needs.


once more:
schrecks have horrible accuraccy on far range! u need to come close to get any hit with it! with a 4model expansive squad which wipe very often by allie mediums: so yes: 2 ptrs are much more usefull than one schreck.

to argue sov has no proper AT handheld is so wrong on so many lvl. they dont need even fuel to push away ur armor...they have 6 models squads and long rang 100% hit chance..they will hit! and they will do dmg. slow with guards and satchel the tank into death. try this with 80 dmg faust.

loL!
17 Oct 2018, 14:41 PM
#1689
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3164 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Oct 2018, 13:54 PMKatitof

And these gaps are filled with other units you have chosen to completely ignore.
OKW isn't going to be "fixed" by making it ost with trucks.

There is Kubel for map control and AA HT for shock light.

Puppchen is full of cheese though with its camo creep, there is also fastest arriving AT vehicle in form of Puma.

Soviets were living, breving proof that you don't need that, current OKW is proof that you still don't need that and 1 shreck is still much more effective then 2 PTRS.

You may not like KT, but you can't ignore it.
Brits do not have such a heavy tank either.
Pershing is very arguable, packs a punch, but can't take any.
IS-2 is a meme for much longer then KT.

Obers are a thing.
AI is one thing OKW doesn't lack in at any stage of the game.


Kubel is useless for anything but capping and very mild MP damage, Flak HT is already a late light at 95 fuel. OKW does not have anything like a UC, Dodge truck, Scout Car or a 222. Which is why I'm happy the 221 is coming.
Rakettens are good/cheesy enough to make due, but every single OKW player would kill to get their hands on a regular 60 range AT gun like the Pak 40. I don't understand why you bring up the Puma as that unit has no role in countering medium-heavy armor, unlike ATG.
Soviets also have a good 60 range AT gun and cheaper tech and vehicles to survive. A single Panzershreck sucks when it is on a very expensive squad that is already overburdened with multiple other roles.
The fact that other factions also have gaps in their line up or underperforming units does not mean OKW should as well. I'd be all for fixing every faction like this. Mortar drop for UKF for example.
Obers have trouble dealing with high vet blobs and trade even in MP at best, which is exactly why one would want to bring a vehicle.

Basically all the options you listed are, at best, mediocre fill-ups. But this is all getting off-topic. I've elaborated why I would want to include Ostheer units in OKW commanders, you are free to disagree.
17 Oct 2018, 14:55 PM
#1690
avatar of JibberJabberJobber

Posts: 1602 | Subs: 3

Just gonna leave this here:

- 200 MP
- 2 free thompsons
- 4 pop
- 2 extra weapon slots
- 25% faster build time than rifles
- Higher dps than rifles at <19 range
- Much better dps retention than unupgraded rifles
- ~20% faster repair time than echelons
- Can be made immediately unlike before

(This excludes the included vehicle)

17 Oct 2018, 16:35 PM
#1691
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1660

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Oct 2018, 12:34 PMSmartie


I agree 100% that OKW heavies need serious rework (who could not?) but i fear thats out of scope.



It is if it is added to a reworked doctrine (where can be useful and thematically fitting).

Would you rather create a brand new copypaste unit or rework one that is trash at its curret state ?
17 Oct 2018, 16:36 PM
#1692
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1660

Just gonna leave this here:

- 200 MP
- 2 free thompsons
- 4 pop
- 2 extra weapon slots
- 25% faster build time than rifles
- Higher dps than rifles at <19 range
- Much better dps retention than unupgraded rifles
- ~20% faster repair time than echelons
- Can be made immediately unlike before

(This excludes the included vehicle)


4 cavalry rifles into double jackson new meta confirmed KAPPA
17 Oct 2018, 16:38 PM
#1693
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1660

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Oct 2018, 13:04 PMKatitof


Sturmtiger used to be stock unit.



The Elite Armor was improved greatly.
HEAT was always a great ability, ST is still a very potent unit, 221 is interesting addition giving another light option with utility for early game, worst thing about the doctrine, tank commander barrage was buffed(delay made it completely useless prior to that) and emergency repairs got a massive buff as well.

You however seem to be completely missing the point of commander.
Its -NOT- supposed to give you super tank. Its supposed to make your armor less dependent of your infantry and increase their potency, which it does.

I'm not going to talk about overwatch, because I never played with it a lot, its goliath only for me from that doc.


Now you suddenly know what is "the point" of the commander.

Enlighten us then...what the hell is the point of kv2 siege gun in Urban Defense doctrine, and SHOCKtroopers ?
17 Oct 2018, 16:43 PM
#1694
avatar of JibberJabberJobber

Posts: 1602 | Subs: 3


4 cavalry rifles into double jackson new meta confirmed KAPPA


WC51 (with vehicle crew inside)..

Best bang for 200mp ever.

Cavalry riflemen pay like 70 munitions for their thompsons, these guys get em for free.
17 Oct 2018, 16:48 PM
#1695
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1660



WC51 (with vehicle crew inside)..

Best bang for 200mp ever.

Cavalry riflemen pay like 70 munitions for their thompsons


Wanted to write wc51 but lapsus got me.

Sounds like kubel meta again but those thiccc boi bail out to get the job done lmao
17 Oct 2018, 17:04 PM
#1696
avatar of RoastinGhost

Posts: 416 | Subs: 1



WC51 (with vehicle crew inside)..

Best bang for 200mp ever.

Cavalry riflemen pay like 70 munitions for their thompsons, these guys get em for free.



But Elite Vehicle Crews and the WC51 don't appear in the same doctrine? It would be an issue if they did, though.
17 Oct 2018, 17:05 PM
#1697
avatar of JibberJabberJobber

Posts: 1602 | Subs: 3




But Elite Vehicle Crews and the WC51 don't appear in the same doctrine? It would be an issue if they did, though.


This is the problem of testing things without having the commander :guyokay:
17 Oct 2018, 18:45 PM
#1698
avatar of A. Soldier

Posts: 3094 | Subs: 2

Practically the OKW is lacking good and reliable AT and the same could be said about their support weapons in general, some examples could be the Pak 40 as already mentioned, the StuG III that could act as a cheaper alternative to the JP4, the MG42 and GrW34, a dedicated AT squad and I would say the Tiger while not fitting in these categories again could fill a cheaper and earlier alternative role to the KT.

Thematically these don't fit in either of the currently reworked doctrines sadly so pushing them in for the sake of filling the gaps in the OKW's Army design isn't something that I would imagine them doing.

I think that intentionally handicapping Armies and then putting the much needed units in doctrines (and especially paid ones/hard to get or earn such) is a bad design in general, I mean we saw it with the OKW and USF, the OKW got their MG34 by default instead of it being in either Fortifications and Luftwaffe and the USF got their mortar, now the Brits are getting snares but I still think that they should still get a mobile mortar as well while also keeping the mortar pit as a garrisonable emplacement for the mortars.

So in hindsight these 3 Armies would then all have needed tools, but the problems for the lack of practicality of the OKW support weapons, weird tech structure for the USF and expensiveness/uniqueness of the UKF would still persist, even if it doesn't sound as good as it could have been had these all been designed like the Ost and Sovs right from the get-go so they would all be at the same time on an even playfield but unique in their own way.

Like with the OKW and Ost's tank line up basically, Panzer IVs and Panthers are available to both Armies but they play differently to each other.
17 Oct 2018, 19:38 PM
#1699
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8



Now you suddenly know what is "the point" of the commander.

Enlighten us then...what the hell is the point of kv2 siege gun in Urban Defense doctrine, and SHOCKtroopers ?


Shock troopers were "invented" LITERALLY to fight in urban environment. That's exactly how they came to be.
Armored units able to fire effective high explosive shells at lower velocities were used for urban combat as well. That's the exact point of using shorter barrel howitzers on armored units - can't take enemy out of that building? Level the building via use of heavy infantry support vehicles (StuH[StuG-e in coh2] for germans for example so you'll understand the point).

So yeah, from historical standpoint of soviet doctrine of urban combat?
The only thing missing is precision strike artillery.

The two are as suitable as it gets thematically in the context of historical use.
17 Oct 2018, 20:02 PM
#1700
avatar of Fantomasas

Posts: 45

Does anyone know when can we expect these reworks to hit the live servers?

The discussion is going nowhere. It is best to hit live and see how it goes from where, like always.
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