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BRITISH COMMANDER REVAMP DISCUSSION

20 Jul 2018, 16:27 PM
#1
avatar of Sturmpanther
Lead Strategist Badge

Posts: 5419 | Subs: 28

Please use this thread to discuss or submit ideas for the British Commander Revamp
If you want to submit a full proposal, here are a few guidelines.

  • Please choose commanders that you feel can realistically become competitive with a few good changes. Some commanders are probably beyond redemption at this point.
  • Reminder that all proposed changes, must be preexisting units or abilities currently in the live game.
  • Suggested changes should not detract from the commanders given theme.
  • Please provide the rationale behind your proposed changes, and how they will improve said commander.
  • Where applicable, provide costs, CP values, or other details regarding particular change(s)

We’re aiming to revamp two commanders per faction. In some instances, the same commanders are going to see a lot of similar ideas. In that case, maybe skip adding another full proposal, and instead get involved in the conversation about how best to make said commander work.
20 Jul 2018, 17:19 PM
#2
avatar of wandererraven

Posts: 353

Special Weapon Regiment
-Tank hunter should be upgrade package when CP reach 1 or 2
-M3 supply halftrack remove Vickers K and use Bren
20 Jul 2018, 17:33 PM
#3
avatar of A. Soldier

Posts: 3094 | Subs: 2

Alright I'll start by using the statistics from this topic: https://www.coh2.org/topic/81227/second-commander-rework

The Royal Artillery Regiment's Early Warning is a good no-brainer ability that requires no player input however I think that it can be replaced by something that would provide the same effect but more, uh, dynamic and making sense I guess? That would be the Recon Section, which is present in the game files and was even used in the UKF Alpha to come with the Valentine as a small battlegroup of sorts for earlier reconnaissance purposes, altho I agree that that would make the Valentine's job a bit overlapping so it would really be up to the player to decide if he would like to invest some early man power (or munitions) into a Recon Section (as a separate call in unit like the Tank Hunters or as an upgrade, hence my munitions suggestion in brackets). They would be in the same role as the OKW's Panzerfusiliers with their flares, but instead of providing sight for the Jagdtiger they'll be providing sight for British Artillery.

The other thing which I want to touch upon is the Perimeter Overwatch, it's a very underwhelming ability and a munitions sink due to the large amount of enemies that can be present in your sectors at the same time but only the 2 base 25 pounders can fire at a single target at once, so to that end I suggest replacing this ability with SnakeyEye's 25 pounder emplacement from his "All Units Mod" which would also directly buff the "Concentration Barrage" ability, having more 25 pounders able to fire at the target but perhaps it's ammunition cost should be increased with each howitzer to keep things balanced.

Overall I think that with these changes the Commander would still remain all about Artillery and sighting for it and would provide the option to the player of going for an early sighting unit or a mid-game armored such that also costs fuel and arguably take on other such units and going for a mobile artillery or static such but with the ability to join in with the Concentration Barrage, which is a fair trade off in my book.

The Second Commander I'll be talking about is the Tactical Support one but I'll be short as it's not even my suggestion but something I really liked by another person: I recently read about a suggestion of the Recovery Sappers being able to "secure" territory for additional resources and for the Observation Posts to grant their ability to FAs as well so they're not completely useless when not near the fighting which I really liked.

I guess this would serve to give this commander more of a point in terms of support instead of being completely useless, especially for it's last ability.
20 Jul 2018, 17:41 PM
#4
avatar of August1996

Posts: 223

Arty Regiment(this is gonna be fun) :

1. Valentine buffed to have far better AI and kinda sucky AT like the T70/Greyhound. Map hack nerfed to behind vet 1 and requiring 45 muni to activate for 45 seconds. Makes a large sweep around itself like the IR halftrack but 360 degrees. 5 full circles for the sweep and just pings the location of all enemies cloaked or not in FOW. However it does not give the player what unit it is. Circle sweep is visible to the enemy.
The coordinated fire ability costs 50 muni and only targetable in revealed areas not through FOW. Unlocked at CP5.

2. Sexton. Buffed to slightly lower than Priest power. 100 fuel and CP9.

3. Arty defense name change to supporting fire. Buff to arty ROF but only include enemies visible to the player. Removed own teritory restriction to can fire anywhere except enemy base. Duration 60 seconds. Uses normal shells not airburst. Follows target priority as follows: team weapons>infantry>structures>vehicles. Cost increased to 120 muni and CP11.

4. No other changes.
20 Jul 2018, 18:24 PM
#5
avatar of Ægion
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 747 | Subs: 2

Special Weapons Regiment

2 CP: Boys AT rifles
-Infantry Sections and Royal Engineers may now upgrade with two AT rifles.
(AT grenade moved to non doctrinally to infantry sections that require mills bombs research)

3 CP: Resupply Half-Track
-Weapon Drops Require Weapon Racks
-Vickers LMG replaced with a Bren Drop
-CP reduced from 4 to 3

(Bren Weapon Racks will now give Vickers Ks to commandos instead of Brens, same stats)

8 CP: Hold the Line
-properly effects sectors that are not catured by the player (Ally captured Territory)

12 CP: Concetrated Fire Operations

13 CP: Crocodile
-Main gun damage increased to 160 from 80


Tactical Support
In live this doctrine is very heavy in munitions and the recover sappers can not help with this seeing how late and costly they are for very little effect. The Forward OP is very restrictive, very expensive, little impact, and a simple way of adding in more than five abilities.

0 CP: Recovery Operations
(Active) Able to fire flares over wrecks
-35 Munitions
(Passive) Allows Infantry Sections and Royal Engineers to Salvage Wrecks

2 CP: Scoped Rifles
-Infantry Sections and Royal Engineers can be upgraded with two scoped Lee Enfields increasing long range accuracy and fire power
-Requires two weapon slots

2 CP: Designate Command Vehicle

4 CP: Air Resupply Operations
-Able to target location and not sector point

10 CP: Artillery Cover
-Base Howitzers also fire for the duration
20 Jul 2018, 18:59 PM
#6
avatar of Aarotron

Posts: 563

I don't think artillery regiment being entirely based on artillery is good idea, instead id make it simular to usf infantry company, allowing it to give some infantry buffs or new infantry units, like canadian reserve infantry that would function like osttruppen, being cheaper, lower combat effectiveness infantry. Valentine should be made AEC sidegrade with more anti-infantry power, with choice to upgrade it into previous recon vehicle.
20 Jul 2018, 19:09 PM
#7
avatar of A. Soldier

Posts: 3094 | Subs: 2

I also just wanted to suggest a possible inclusion of a mobile 3-inch mortar team for Artillery if nothing else really.
20 Jul 2018, 19:41 PM
#8
avatar of Aarotron

Posts: 563

I also just wanted to suggest a possible inclusion of a mobile 3-inch mortar team for Artillery if nothing else really.


Hey actually giving brits 106mm mortar for mortar doctrine, just use the model of soviet 120 mm.
20 Jul 2018, 20:13 PM
#9
avatar of A. Soldier

Posts: 3094 | Subs: 2



Hey actually giving brits 106mm mortar for mortar doctrine, just use the model of soviet 120 mm.


That's also a good idea.

The Germans also used captured soviet Mortars of which they had their own designs, they just called it Granatwerfer 42(r) instead of just GrW42, I planned on implementing them in my mod but yeah... then I saw a lot of stuff I could use from the Soviets as captured or just flat out renamed stuff like the Field Gun, or M42 just renamed to a Pak 36 so I gave up because it was just too much lol.
21 Jul 2018, 00:23 AM
#10
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2418 | Subs: 1

Royal Artillery Regiment

Lacks diversity. Only offers shitty arty and flares.

- reduce Sexton price from 90 fuel to 80 fuel and pop cap from 14 to 12
- replace Permiter Overwatch with Forward Observation Post from Tactical Support Regiment. Slightly reduce munitions cost of the abilites Forward Observation Post offers.
- Valentine price from 80 fuel to 70 fuel and pop cap from 12 to 10



Tactical Support Regiment

I never see it used. I tried it myself and it sucks. Just a very weird doctrine.

- Field Recovery Operation from 450 MP for two squads to 220 MP for one squad. Why would I want to call in two engineers for 450 MP? Makes no sense. Especially because one salvage engineer squad is already enough for salvaging wrecks. If you get the chance to just call in one squad the ability might be good and useful.

- Arty Cover, used to be OP then got nerfed into the ground. Now it´s bad. Decrease price to 200 muni. To make it fair and not a complete rip-off.

- Forward Observation Post replaced with AVRE. Reason is that you don´t have enough muni to use it when u have Arty Cover and the supply drop in the doctrine. Forward Observation Post is just too munitions intensive to work in this doctrine. AVRE could do well because it gives you another option to spend your fuel and MP in late game.


21 Jul 2018, 01:08 AM
#11
avatar of BeastHunter

Posts: 186

I think one of the worst designed commanders in the current game is the Tactical Support Regiment, which has some obvious flaws like the high ammunition cost for every single ability beside the recovery sappers. Those recovery troops have some other problems as they can only arrive in pairs for 450 manpower and get minesweepers from the start, which limits their fighting power which might be needed for a 450 mp callin unless you are really far ahead and just need some repairs.

In a potential revamp of the commander i would like to completely abandon the Forward Observation Post simply because the commander has a quite ammunition heavy and versatile offmap artillery strike: Artillery Cover to pin infantry, slow the firerate of enemy tanks and last but not least the concealing smoke for friendly damaged vehicles.

My wishes for this doctrine would be the following abilities:

2cp - Designate Command Vehicle ~ unchanged

3cp - Field Recovery Operation ~ 4cp -> 3cp maybe even 2cp but the manpower cost should be 250 and only dispatch a single Royal Engineer Recovery squad with unchanged abilities i would like to change the flares upon entering the battlefield to a single shortlasting flare (10-15s) that can only be used on enemy frontline territory but may be targeted precisely as vehicle wrecks might be if the game is played against an okw player with salvage or a 1v1 where no vehicles have been lost until 3cps.

4cp - Air Resupply Operation ~ unchanged, i think the price might be a bit too low but the ability runs for 40s and has 180s of cooldown which seem quite fair to not be used to build giant supportweapon armies with a relative low manpower (reman) cost.

10cp Artillery Cover ~ I would like to lower the cost from 250 to 200 or 180 ammunition but the area where the supporting artillery hits should be somewhat smaller to help closing pockets and fighting encircled enemy concentrations but not cover whole frontlines.

The last Ability to round up the frontline supporting abilities would be an 25 Pounder Emplacement as it is seen in SneakEyes Guide. I am not sure how well this would work as it has a different crew/weapon hitpoint profile then every other howitzer but has also a different target size that is hard to miss. I think brace wouldn't work on a unit that should have a 90-60s cooldown (vet0->vet2) so this should be tested in cheatmod if this Howitzertype would be able to compete agaist classic howitzers. ~ unsure about timing and exact costs could be copy from the other howitzers with 8cp and 400manpower + 50fuel
21 Jul 2018, 05:33 AM
#12
avatar of thomasagray

Posts: 135

Permanently Banned
The Churchill Crocodile in all applicable commanders:
Modify stats of the main cannon so that it matches that of the Churchill MKVII, perhaps making it more worth its cost as it can hold its own against medium tanks.
21 Jul 2018, 05:35 AM
#13
avatar of thomasagray

Posts: 135

Permanently Banned
jump backJump back to quoted post20 Jul 2018, 18:24 PMÆgion
Special Weapons Regiment

2 CP: Boys AT rifles
-Infantry Sections and Royal Engineers may now upgrade with two AT rifles.
(AT grenade moved to non doctrinally to infantry sections that require mills bombs research)

3 CP: Resupply Half-Track
-Weapon Drops Require Weapon Racks
-Vickers LMG replaced with a Bren Drop
-CP reduced from 4 to 3

(Bren Weapon Racks will now give Vickers Ks to commandos instead of Brens, same stats)

8 CP: Hold the Line
-properly effects sectors that are not catured by the player (Ally captured Territory)

12 CP: Concetrated Fire Operations

13 CP: Crocodile
-Main gun damage increased to 160 from 80


I feel that Tank Hunters Infantry Section should stay, as they also have the ability to track enemy armor, which you failed to mention. Also, I feel that the Vickers drop should stay as well, after the Bren had been nerfed.
23 Jul 2018, 17:04 PM
#14
avatar of EtherealDragon

Posts: 1833 | Subs: 1

Artillery Regiment

Rationale This commander is terrible but the 25 Pounder Barrage and Flares are good enough to keep.

Changes - +1 to August's idea for Valentine - it should be a T70/Greyhoundish vehicle that can synergize with Sexton with Munitions abilities. Buff Suxton. Remove the last ability where Howitzer fire at random units in your territory (Perimeter Overwatch? Whatever, it's not salvageable) - Replace it with Mortar Pit Ordinance latent ability - allows you to use the WP and HE Shells that Mortar Pit had in Alpha. HE Shells can be a toggle for larger AOE but slower ROF or a timed ability of some kind. Conversely the Counter-Barrage ability from Advanced Emplacements could be swapped in as well.


Tactical Support

Rationale - Artillery Cover is still good but not OP enough to carry the commander anymore. Could be good with some tweaking to eliminate being overly reliant on munitions and map-dependent garrisons for Forward Operating Base.

Changes - Field Recovery Sappers - now that their Salvage values aren't broken they are pretty worthless. I'd add some PIATs to them so that they can function as a quick response AT call-in as well. Thematically this works because they help to hunt the vehicles they salvage. Air Resupply- Another munitions sink that's better used for Artillery Cover - I'd be okay replacing it with Repair Forward Assembly which has elements of tactical support flavor.

Forward Base - This ability is beyond impractical to use and with Artillery Cover as a Muni sink you can't ever use the off-maps. I have several ideas to change it. A) Lower the CP to something low but lock the off-maps to Tech. - This lets you claim a garrison early before they are destroyed in the late game. B) Tie smoke and recon to lower tech so you can use them earlier, stronger off maps are tied to Tier 3 or Hammer/Anvil if needed C) Another option is to turn FOB into a Forward Assembly upgrade so that you can build them anywhere without being so map dependent. FOB off-maps can also be replaced with a command aura of sorts OR be a sort of "Super Advanced Forward Assembly" that gives you both Medics and Repair or both Medics and Forward Retreat Point.
23 Jul 2018, 17:41 PM
#15
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

As much as I like the idea of UKF getting a fast generalist doctrinal light tank, that light tank would be the Honey, not the Valentine. The Honey would be pretty easy to implement given it's literally another name for the Stuart.

The British tank doctrine was to make two types of tanks: fast Cruiser tanks like the Cromwell and slower, more heavily armoured Infantry tanks like the Churchill. The Valentine is an older Infantry Tank, which means the design space it occupies were it to be loosely historically accurate would be a slow light vehicle.

That's a piece of design space that hasn't been explored: a light vehicle with the speed of a Churchill but the durability of a medium tank.
23 Jul 2018, 18:08 PM
#16
avatar of Tatatala

Posts: 589

A light vehicle with the durability of a medium isn't a light vehicle, it's a medium.
23 Jul 2018, 18:36 PM
#17
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

A light vehicle with the durability of a medium isn't a light vehicle, it's a medium.


Fair but also semantic. I'd be thinking light vehicle level firepower, medium vehicle level durability and heavy vehicle level speed.
23 Jul 2018, 20:48 PM
#18
avatar of adamírcz

Posts: 929

Im so gardening tempted to write vanguard just to remove that random glider BS crit where it cant produce nor make FRP so u paid 400+ MP just for the air officer.

But I guess we should rework the one with artilerry overwatch or whatever it was and the arty regiment
23 Jul 2018, 21:21 PM
#19
avatar of Puppetmaster
Patrion 310

Posts: 871

Im so gardening tempted to write vanguard just to remove that random glider BS crit where it cant produce nor make FRP so u paid 400+ MP just for the air officer.

But I guess we should rework the one with artilerry overwatch or whatever it was and the arty regiment


You know you have to tech to unlock FRP right? (You probably do, just checking as I've yet to have the bug you describe)
24 Jul 2018, 04:55 AM
#20
avatar of FunkyMonk

Posts: 15

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Jul 2018, 18:24 PMÆgion
Special Weapons Regiment

2 CP: Boys AT rifles
-Infantry Sections and Royal Engineers may now upgrade with two AT rifles.
(AT grenade moved to non doctrinally to infantry sections that require mills bombs research)

3 CP: Resupply Half-Track
-Weapon Drops Require Weapon Racks
-Vickers LMG replaced with a Bren Drop
-CP reduced from 4 to 3

(Bren Weapon Racks will now give Vickers Ks to commandos instead of Brens, same stats)

8 CP: Hold the Line
-properly effects sectors that are not catured by the player (Ally captured Territory)

12 CP: Concetrated Fire Operations

13 CP: Crocodile
-Main gun damage increased to 160 from 80


Tactical Support
In live this doctrine is very heavy in munitions and the recover sappers can not help with this seeing how late and costly they are for very little effect. The Forward OP is very restrictive, very expensive, little impact, and a simple way of adding in more than five abilities.

0 CP: Recovery Operations
(Active) Able to fire flares over wrecks
-35 Munitions
(Passive) Allows Infantry Sections and Royal Engineers to Salvage Wrecks

2 CP: Scoped Rifles
-Infantry Sections and Royal Engineers can be upgraded with two scoped Lee Enfields increasing long range accuracy and fire power
-Requires two weapon slots

2 CP: Designate Command Vehicle

4 CP: Air Resupply Operations
-Able to target location and not sector point

10 CP: Artillery Cover
-Base Howitzers also fire for the duration

How are you supposed to give vickers k to commandos when there aren’t any commandos in the doctrine?
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