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GCS2 Citadel faction win rate

A_E
3 Jul 2018, 08:06 AM
#41
avatar of A_E
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Donator 11

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Yeah I can go with that. You're both saying it's the best thing we have right now and it's surely worthy of discussion, but I'd agree it's not enough to draw conclusions for the most part.

I think the Brits thing is a lot easier to prove with this data though, due to the top players not even playing Brits any more, but that's more the reason the sample size is small etc.
3 Jul 2018, 09:57 AM
#42
avatar of vasa1719

Posts: 2635 | Subs: 4

Permanently Banned
jump backJump back to quoted post3 Jul 2018, 07:13 AMA_E


What I'm saying is for this game this is the only way to reliably measure faction balance. You're talking about thousands? There's only a few hundred people that play this game efficiently, I myself am capable of getting into the top 200 and I am a very casual 28yo 1v1 automatcher that works a 40 hour week job...

You're honestly looking at 50 "tournament players" that are the best 1v1 automatch players, they're one and the same. There's just a few people that can't travel for gcs purposes like Luciano, Paula etc. but other than that there's pretty much no one else.

This is reliable data.

Don't forget the wildcard brackets too, 40 additional games there our sample size is 180 games in tourney conditions from the best players, it will rise to 320 by the end of July..........

Even when we hit 360 tourney games in ideal test conditions between top players, I bet you people are still talking about phantom 1000s of automatch players and what is "significant".


All games that making for top players are dead, and coh2 dies coz balance make top players for top players. Its look like mastrubating in mirror.
A_E
3 Jul 2018, 10:08 AM
#43
avatar of A_E
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Donator 11

Posts: 2232 | Subs: 4



After spendi week talking bad english in gaming forum I like spend friday night mastrubating in mirror.


Vasa can you please not talk about your personal life here, none of us want to hear that.

Stay on topic!
3 Jul 2018, 10:09 AM
#44
avatar of vasa1719

Posts: 2635 | Subs: 4

Permanently Banned
I am sorry, 5 years peoples complaine about t-70, now its just l2p issue, you dont need puma to counter it, you have strong 222 and pac, you have PG, yes, you lose a lot mobility without puma, but its like say, that soviet have only way to play with sherman call abuse. OST t3 price is change, now its more EZ to get faster p4, but problem are not with it, but with OST tier system compared to soviet.
People call puma, coz its EZ< you dont need think, you dont need move pac, you just a move lmg grens with puma. Nobody complaine about that old CAS are bad vs t-70.
I still surprised that nobody dont complay about t-70 into is-2 opening, coz its same close like OKW com panther build.
3 Jul 2018, 10:18 AM
#45
avatar of CieZ

Posts: 1445 | Subs: 4

I am sorry, 5 years peoples complaine about t-70, now its just l2p issue, you dont need puma to counter it, you have strong 222 and pac, you have PG, yes, you lose a lot mobility without puma, but its like say, that soviet have only way to play with sherman call abuse. OST t3 price is change, now its more EZ to get faster p4, but problem are not with it, but with OST tier system compared to soviet.
People call puma, coz its EZ< you dont need think, you dont need move pac, you just a move lmg grens with puma. Nobody complaine about that old CAS are bad vs t-70.
I still surprised that nobody dont complay about t-70 into is-2 opening, coz its same close like OKW com panther build.


You no longer play 1s yet you’re here telling every top player that our inability to kill a t70 without a puma is a l2p issue?

No reasonably good player is going to let their t70 die to a PAK, and unless you’re comfortable camping 1/3 or 1/4 of the map with your single PAK against a faction that has a stronger late game... you get the puma to keep the pressure on and actually finish the t70 so it doesn’t give them sight of the whole map late game.
3 Jul 2018, 10:36 AM
#46
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15475 | Subs: 7

I am sorry, 5 years peoples complaine about t-70, now its just l2p issue, you dont need puma to counter it, you have strong 222 and pac, you have PG, yes, you lose a lot mobility without puma, but its like say, that soviet have only way to play with sherman call abuse. OST t3 price is change, now its more EZ to get faster p4, but problem are not with it, but with OST tier system compared to soviet.
People call puma, coz its EZ< you dont need think, you dont need move pac, you just a move lmg grens with puma. Nobody complaine about that old CAS are bad vs t-70.
I still surprised that nobody dont complay about t-70 into is-2 opening, coz its same close like OKW com panther build.


Solution is simple.

Keep balancing game for top players who know how to play and ignore crowd that always whines about balance while they play on a level where balance does not even matter.
3 Jul 2018, 11:13 AM
#47
avatar of vasa1719

Posts: 2635 | Subs: 4

Permanently Banned
jump backJump back to quoted post3 Jul 2018, 10:18 AMCieZ


You no longer play 1s yet you’re here telling every top player that our inability to kill a t70 without a puma is a l2p issue?

No reasonably good player is going to let their t70 die to a PAK, and unless you’re comfortable camping 1/3 or 1/4 of the map with your single PAK against a faction that has a stronger late game... you get the puma to keep the pressure on and actually finish the t70 so it doesn’t give them sight of the whole map late game.


And what taht i dont play this game ? Its change fact taht i dont have opinion about game or its mean that my ladders standing are fail ? OR its mean that you back from 2 years menopausa and you opinion now are only right ? I play this game, when you leave game with Brad. Now guy that back and play game a month try to learn anothers ? Isnt its kind of game rasist ?
Or think taht fast clickers know about game all and thay are right coz thayare better in fact coz younger ?
No reasonably good player is going to let their stuart/aec/luchs/251/puma will be die, but thay die, coz players are humans, cpz game are good for pathing, coz here are no bugs.

If you think that i am wrong, hm, write to him that he are wrong if you right opnion based on ladder place or tounrey wins, DevM post https://www.coh2.org/topic/81117/oh-early-2018-1v1-tournament-meta/page/1#post_id687591


3 Jul 2018, 11:30 AM
#48
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 2428 | Subs: 5



Solution is simple.

Keep balancing game for top players who know how to play and ignore crowd that always whines about balance while they play on a level where balance does not even matter.


That's an incredibly bad marketing strategy.
3 Jul 2018, 11:30 AM
#49
avatar of vasa1719

Posts: 2635 | Subs: 4

Permanently Banned


Solution is simple.

Keep balancing game for top players who know how to play and ignore crowd that always whines about balance while they play on a level where balance does not even matter.


Pls, top players are most whiners too, remember Luvnest whine, Hans i can write more names, but dont think that they can be in category top player. Top players also complaine about maps, optimizations and i dont see that somthing changes with it :D. Whanna remember you, that not top players buy all this copys of game, i dont see any problem if thay will be pay molliones for game and play it alone, but we pay for this game too. I dont whanna trust balance to players who think that another players are "untermench".
Whines are humans things, its okey. But in you logic we can ignore opinions of normals peoples and listen only billioners, that dont have problems. Peoples always complaine about life, economic, politic, but its dosnt matter that thay are not right or right. Also balance things are very flavors, Zarok think maxim are OP, Barton think thay are not, so who are right ? Von think trees are OP, Noggano think nope. Sturmpanther think Moscow north is bad, Brosras think its just l2p. So who are right ? Aimstorng think 2 brens need nerf, Mr.Smith think thay are fine. Who are right ? Katitof talk that old m5 rush and penals flamer are fine and even proof it with repleys on minsk pockets, almost all anothers have different opinion.
Top players know how to abuse, if thay know how to play, thay will be use more strats, look at Ceaser without meta play, just simple coh2 asian player, that click many.
3 Jul 2018, 11:36 AM
#50
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 2841 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Jul 2018, 10:18 AMCieZ


You no longer play 1s yet you’re here telling every top player that our inability to kill a t70 without a puma is a l2p issue?

No reasonably good player is going to let their t70 die to a PAK, and unless you’re comfortable camping 1/3 or 1/4 of the map with your single PAK against a faction that has a stronger late game... you get the puma to keep the pressure on and actually finish the t70 so it doesn’t give them sight of the whole map late game.


Maybe because the whole idea is that T-70 last till late game, same as 222 or any other light vehicle.
3 Jul 2018, 11:50 AM
#51
avatar of CieZ

Posts: 1445 | Subs: 4

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Jul 2018, 11:36 AMEsxile


Maybe because the whole idea is that T-70 last till late game, same as 222 or any other light vehicle.


The t70 is more useful late game than any other light vehicle except perhaps the AEC, because of the absurd amount of vision it provides the Soviet player with, as well as the ability to threaten fast squad wipes on any squad brave enough to try and cap the sides of the map.

Also, Vasa, re-read DevM’s post. He says you’re not FORCED to get the Puma, but why would you choose to give up so much map control when you could just get the puma? Which is pretty much what I said, I just phrased it as camping with the AT gun on your side of the map. The puma let’s you keep up the pressure, which is what you want to be doing. You have a solid early game and a great mid game with the FHT/222s, if you can go into the late game with a decent lead you can fight off the t34/85s etc. but if you give Sov enough breathing room their late game will punish t3 play.
3 Jul 2018, 11:53 AM
#52
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3222

That's an incredibly bad marketing strategy.


It's not a marketing strategy. Relic doesn't put how they balance the game on the Steam Store page.

They balance the game for top level because only the top and bottom of the ladder are really affected by it.

CoH 2's automatcher works on ELO: if you win your hidden ELO rating goes up, if you lose it goes down. You have a separate rating for each combination of faction and mode. The game tries to match you with an opponent with as close an ELO rating to you as possible.

For example, the automatcher doesn't know that UKF is a meme. If you play UKF you'll lose against opponents you'd have beaten as SOV or USF (assuming equal skill with all factions). As a consequence, your UKF ELO rating will be lower than your SOV and USF ELO ratings. Consequently, the automatcher will try to match you with lesser skilled opponents than you'd have faced as SOV or USF.

For the majority of the ladder UKF works fine because players on UKF get placed into matches with opponents of equal ELO. That's why most of the ladder doesn't think they're a meme: they're being matched with players who can beat them with UKF.

At the top of the ladder the player pool is too thin for the automatcher to do this. You can't give DevM a UKF opponent of equal ELO because there isn't one. In tournaments, there's no ELO safety net at all: each faction is judged on its own merits by top players trying to win and some are found wanting.
3 Jul 2018, 12:19 PM
#53
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 2841 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Jul 2018, 11:50 AMCieZ


The t70 is more useful late game than any other light vehicle except perhaps the AEC, because of the absurd amount of vision it provides the Soviet player with, as well as the ability to threaten fast squad wipes on any squad brave enough to try and cap the sides of the map.


Yes and the 222 also does that now, not at the same level but not at the same price as well. Luch also does that.

I'm not saying the T-70 is in the right spot, I don't know that but I don't like the argument of "This unit must have a short lifespawn and not reach lategame."

Also looking at the meta today, T-70 wiping squad potential doesn't seem so critical looking at the numeros 4 gren strat used today. People prefer to invest in more squad subject to be wiped by a T-70 than a 222 or Pzgrenshreck or pak to properly counter it.
3 Jul 2018, 13:00 PM
#54
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15475 | Subs: 7



That's an incredibly bad marketing strategy.

Why?

Unless you are top 50-100 player, you are completely unaffected by it as you do not possess personal skill high enough for actual balance to matter.
3 Jul 2018, 16:28 PM
#55
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 2428 | Subs: 5


Why?

Unless you are top 50-100 player, you are completely unaffected by it as you do not possess personal skill high enough for actual balance to matter.


Because revenue is generated by the masses, so the game should be balanced for the masses to be a fun and fair experience. You can't nerf a faction just because it's too good with top player micro and leave the average player to be trashed every game by easier to play factions. Balancing for top players only is a death sentence for the general population health of the game. It doesn't really matter for CoH2 anymore though, but it would certainly be a bad business strategy for a CoH3 if that's ever released.

3 Jul 2018, 16:53 PM
#56
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15475 | Subs: 7



Because revenue is generated by the masses, so the game should be balanced for the masses to be a fun and fair experience. You can't nerf a faction just because it's too good with top player micro and leave the average player to be trashed every game by easier to play factions. Balancing for top players only is a death sentence for the general population health of the game. It doesn't really matter for CoH2 anymore though, but it would certainly be a bad business strategy for a CoH3 if that's ever released.



The game is 5 years old.
It hardly generates any revenue anymore.

If it was otherwise, we'd be getting content updates and commanders, you know, to keep the masses interested.

Few people getting the game in humble bundle or -75% steam sale isn't revenue anymore and bulk of population already got what they wanted, regardless of balance, plus balance never impacted revenue in the first place.

Tiger ace being prime example, even when it no longer was 2500hp, 320dmg 100% penetration on everything behemoth, it still was one of the most popular doctrines in low level players brackets.
3 Jul 2018, 17:03 PM
#57
avatar of EtherealDragon

Posts: 1535 | Subs: 1



Pls, top players are most whiners too


Complaining about valid balance and map issues is not the same as whining. Sure an odd top player here and there can feel differently about certain game mechanics but when the majority of the upper tier of players agrees about something it's more likely than not that it's a valid concern. It's completely different than some of the 4 digit rank players who only play one faction who complain about balance on here when it's obviously l2p issues.
3 Jul 2018, 17:50 PM
#58
avatar of Mr.Flush

Posts: 450

Bad Balance might discourage people from playing their favorite faction. I switch games when the balance favors one side over the other or the meta becomes stale.
3 Jul 2018, 17:56 PM
#59
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3222

Because revenue is generated by the masses, so the game should be balanced for the masses to be a fun and fair experience. You can't nerf a faction just because it's too good with top player micro and leave the average player to be trashed every game by easier to play factions. Balancing for top players only is a death sentence for the general population health of the game. It doesn't really matter for CoH2 anymore though, but it would certainly be a bad business strategy for a CoH3 if that's ever released.


For the majority the automatcher does the balancing. It's how CoH 2 got away with the egregious unbalance of new faction releases for so long.
3 Jul 2018, 20:03 PM
#60
avatar of vasa1719

Posts: 2635 | Subs: 4

Permanently Banned


Complaining about valid balance and map issues is not the same as whining. Sure an odd top player here and there can feel differently about certain game mechanics but when the majority of the upper tier of players agrees about something it's more likely than not that it's a valid concern. It's completely different than some of the 4 digit rank players who only play one faction who complain about balance on here when it's obviously l2p issues.


How many we have top players and have many casual/whiners players ? So its mathematic things, even on Norvey are serial killer. In you logic, i must say that all englishmans are bad peoples coz i see some bad guys in TV ? 1, 3, 5 whiners mean all casual/notmal players = whiners ?
What different beetwin complaines of Hans and whines ?
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