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Ardeness Assault MP maps into automatch

22 Jun 2018, 01:59 AM
#41
avatar of nigo
Senior Editor Badge

Posts: 2237 | Subs: 15



They should all be reviewed by ladder mappers before being considered



+1

Thanks WF.
22 Jun 2018, 02:12 AM
#42
avatar of GiaA

Posts: 710 | Subs: 2



Thanks

The data needs to drive operations as far as ladder maps go such as this and this. There is no reasonable case to be made to do it any other way. I made this case in my COH3 article as well in the maps section.

New maps need to be thoroughly tested before implementation with a mapper assigned to a map (perhaps multiple) and his job is to go out and get groups of people to play on the map, he spectates or watches replays and solicits feedback and makes decisions where to make changes, if he is skilled in ladder mapmaking quality should be distilled from this process. This method is by far the best way to go.

Care has to be taken before moving forward as far as ladder goes. Not following these guidelines is why the map pool is what it is. I mean...if i change from 1v1 to 2v2 COH2 still doesnt remember which maps i vetoed and i have to select them over every time i switch game types, its been over 4 years and this still hasnt been fixed...this basic functionality shows the things falling through the cracks with the ladder in general.

1. Use data to remove existing maps
2. Thoroughly focus group test maps that desire to join ladder (or possibly map tournaments)


Good points, but a lot of the maps are fundamentally flawed. Things like overcrowded areas, weird structures that look good but lead to terrible gameplay (eg. the castle on eindhoven which is actually a decent map overall), weird ressource layouts and the terrible use of houses make some of them unsalvageable. Those maps shouldn't be bothered with let alone put into automatch. (Lost Glider, Westwall, Ettelbrück, Trois Ponts, Poltawa, Charkov etc.)

The process you're describing needs to be applied to well thought out maps that need fine tuning but offer a good basis. (Kholodny, Langres, the 2v2 map with the 3 houses around the southern fuel that are sort of ruining it atm etc.)
22 Jun 2018, 02:41 AM
#43
avatar of Mittens
Donator 11

Posts: 1276

"H Y P E R E S T O R E D" - NIGO in the chat


Pls gib more maps
22 Jun 2018, 04:14 AM
#44
avatar of -HOI-PauL.a.D
Donator 11

Posts: 1341 | Subs: 6

where is my URBAN PG ?
22 Jun 2018, 08:13 AM
#45
avatar of aerafield

Posts: 2977 | Subs: 3

5 men Panzergren call-in that also got a flamer and smoke grenades


22 Jun 2018, 10:19 AM
#46
avatar of MajorBloodnok
Admin Red  Badge
Patrion 314

Posts: 10665 | Subs: 9

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Jun 2018, 02:12 AMGiaA


Good points, but a lot of the maps are fundamentally flawed. Things like overcrowded areas, weird structures that look good but lead to terrible gameplay (eg. the castle on eindhoven which is actually a decent map overall), weird ressource layouts and the terrible use of houses make some of them unsalvageable. Those maps shouldn't be bothered with let alone put into automatch. (Lost Glider, Westwall, Ettelbrück, Trois Ponts, Poltawa, Charkov etc.)

The process you're describing needs to be applied to well thought out maps that need fine tuning but offer a good basis. (Kholodny, Langres, the 2v2 map with the 3 houses around the southern fuel that are sort of ruining it atm etc.)


Just a FYI: Eindhoven was revised 3 years ago by Spanky with input from others like Cruzz, Carpiqua and WhiteFlash. However, probably owing to team changes at Relic base, the map never progressed further.
22 Jun 2018, 11:05 AM
#47
avatar of wuff

Posts: 1534 | Subs: 1

None of them look suited for 1v1, too large. I worry about shoehorning in maps for the sake of having more.

We still have a bunch of maps that need to seriously reworked or removed.
22 Jun 2018, 13:43 PM
#48
avatar of F1sh

Posts: 521

Yes please, there aren't enough maps in automatch.
22 Jun 2018, 16:40 PM
#49
avatar of nigo
Senior Editor Badge

Posts: 2237 | Subs: 15

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Jun 2018, 11:05 AMwuff
None of them look suited for 1v1, too large.


IMHO all AA 1v1 maps are small.
22 Jun 2018, 17:02 PM
#50
avatar of Rosbone

Posts: 2098 | Subs: 2

Just a quick observation from the posts so far:
1. Most of the maps shown have WAY too many buildings.
2. Can a 1v1 map be too large? These maps remind me of LaGleize which to me had too many buildings and was too large. And was removed from automatch.

Thoughts on large maps:
- Make for boring ESL type games since they will be longer and have less action.
- Be troublesome for newer players who do not have the micro to deal with having units all over the map.
- May induce more RNG losses since you could run into more MANY vs ONE situations. Like I always say: go left win the game, go right lose the game. This is multiplied as the map gets larger.

But I am digging Nigos excitement :)
22 Jun 2018, 17:16 PM
#51
avatar of WhiteFlash
Senior Mapmaker Badge
Benefactor 119

Posts: 1295 | Subs: 1



Just a FYI: Eindhoven was revised 3 years ago by Spanky with input from others like Cruzz, Carpiqua and WhiteFlash. However, probably owing to team changes at Relic base, the map never progressed further.


Who knows what happened here, changes were made and verified to be good. Relic, any ideas?

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Jun 2018, 17:02 PMRosbone
Just a quick observation from the posts so far:
1. Most of the maps shown have WAY too many buildings.
2. Can a 1v1 map be too large? These maps remind me of LaGleize which to me had too many buildings and was too large. And was removed from automatch.

Thoughts on large maps:
- Make for boring ESL type games since they will be longer and have less action.
- Be troublesome for newer players who do not have the micro to deal with having units all over the map.
- May induce more RNG losses since you could run into more MANY vs ONE situations. Like I always say: go left win the game, go right lose the game. This is multiplied as the map gets larger.

But I am digging Nigos excitement :)


They may be too big, they may be too small. These points are a small part of why each map needs to be thoroughly tested and reviewed individually.
22 Jun 2018, 18:14 PM
#52
avatar of ferwiner
Donator 11

Posts: 2885

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Jun 2018, 22:59 PMjas


What I'd like to see in a future Relic game would be a separation between "Normal" automatch and "Ranked" automatch, like in some MOBA games. The normal mode could have a large variety of maps that aren't necessarily the most balanced, while the ranked mode could have something like only the top 4 least vetoed maps. That way the competitive people can play only the most balanced maps, while people who just want to have casual fun can enjoy a greater variety of maps.


I agree, although both of them should keep the rank under the hood. Otherwise automatching makes no sense.
22 Jun 2018, 19:29 PM
#53
avatar of Sturmpanther
Lead Strategist Badge

Posts: 5441 | Subs: 35

Watched the 2 3vs3 version and the 4vs4 version in this streamcast with giving feedback to this 3 maps:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/276290620
23 Jun 2018, 07:01 AM
#54
avatar of vasa1719

Posts: 2635 | Subs: 4

Permanently Banned
Ye, more trash maps EleGiggle
Remove not bad maps, add more worse, Relic logic OpieOP. Moves for moves to show that we somthing do.
23 Jun 2018, 08:15 AM
#55
23 Jun 2018, 12:02 PM
#56
23 Jun 2018, 12:54 PM
#57
avatar of ferwiner
Donator 11

Posts: 2885

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Jun 2018, 11:05 AMwuff
None of them look suited for 1v1, too large. I worry about shoehorning in maps for the sake of having more.

We still have a bunch of maps that need to seriously reworked or removed.


The problem with current map pool is not connected with individual maps. The problem lies in the fact that there is a big group of maps that play the same from strategic perspective. What I mean is that if some build and commander works well on one of them, it is going to be a go to choice on all of them.

This feature of map pool leads to boring metas that frustrate people to the point that they agree on any changes that will shake up the meta. It also makes people struggle on few maps that require different approach, leading to negative reception of these maps. In effect some of these maps are being removed from the pool, amplifying the root couse of the problem. The veto system doesn't help either, couse it lets players avoid most of the different maps and stay with their brainless single build.

What we really need is more maps that play different than the core ones, to make playerbase more used to the obvious thing of choosing the strategy depending on the map.
23 Jun 2018, 14:18 PM
#58
avatar of IJustDontCare

Posts: 62

I wish Tric would make us more Farm maps because I know he loves making Farm maps for all of us :snfPeter:
23 Jun 2018, 23:42 PM
#59
avatar of momo4sho
Senior Caster Badge
Donator 22

Posts: 466 | Subs: 1

I say we skip adding these to 1v1 and put in a revised version of eindhoven for 1v1 and 2v2. Let's stick to maps we know instead of creating potential chaos.

There are already maps in the pool that deserve to be deleted or heavily revised
24 Jun 2018, 01:24 AM
#60
avatar of Napalm

Posts: 1595 | Subs: 2

The Angry Bears still has a considerable amount of active 3v3 and 4v4 game mode players. It would be nice to have a couple new maps added to the rotation. However, I do understand that Relic has moved on and the likelihood of getting a map designers time to make adjustments is low.

I still like this game. I think there is room for additional paid content. Maybe with the freed up DoW3 resources....
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