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russian armor

Give me a reason why KV8 is OP?

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14 Sep 2013, 09:50 AM
#361
avatar of alexshiro

Posts: 62


On the topic, I think the KV8 is a little too good atm and needs some adjusting but whenever people post stories like these...they just smack of hyperbole and don't do anything to support balance discussions. Post a replay instead of sharing stories. Far too often players complaining about balance exaggerate A LOT in their game anecdotes.


It really isn't hyperbole. It bounces Panzer IV shots like crazy, and the 45 mm hurts a Panzer more than the 75 hurts the KV-8, I said this a couple pages back, do you believe me now?


In your previous post you cried that it destroy's infantry too quickly and now you cry because it's armor is too strong,seriously make up your mind...
It's a Heavy Tank,so the armor reduction is out of the question,why would you use your infantry on the best Anti-Infantry unit in the game,logic much?....maybe damage reduction would be more relevant/appealing


Both. It's also too damn fast and dirt cheap. It should get the MG42 treatment.
14 Sep 2013, 10:27 AM
#362
avatar of wooof

Posts: 950 | Subs: 1



It really isn't hyperbole. It bounces Panzer IV shots like crazy, and the 45 mm hurts a Panzer more than the 75 hurts the KV-8, I said this a couple pages back, do you believe me now?




kv8 certainly doesnt do more damage to a p4 than vice versa. p4 does 160 damage with a 46% chance to pen and shoots every 6 seconds. kv8 does 55 damage with a 31% chance to pen and shoots every 3.3 seconds. that 45mm is really only good against light vehicles. i dont think the kv8s issue is the 45mm or the armor, its that flame dps.
14 Sep 2013, 11:04 AM
#363
avatar of alexshiro

Posts: 62

160*0.46/6/960=0.0128

55*0.31/3.3/640=0.008

I think I might have put that formula better...

960/160/0.46*6=78

640/55/0.31*3.3=124

I got that it takes over a full minute of shooting for a PZIV to kill a KV-8, consistent with my experience and that KV-8 is about half as good at killing PzIV as vice versa, not really a good idea for a KV-8 to go toe to toe but it can survive and soften up a PZIV until a SU-85 arrives.

Please correct my math if it's wrong, but from that I'd say the armor is an issue too. In beta I remember blowing up KV-8s like nothing (maybe it was rng luck?) so their flame DPS wasn't much of an issue if it was a trade of 1 gren squad before KV-8 got intercepted and blown up, but now I can't kill the damn things.
14 Sep 2013, 13:58 PM
#364
avatar of OZtheWiZARD

Posts: 1439

160*0.46/6/960=0.0128

55*0.31/3.3/640=0.008

I think I might have put that formula better...

960/160/0.46*6=78

640/55/0.31*3.3=124

I got that it takes over a full minute of shooting for a PZIV to kill a KV-8, consistent with my experience and that KV-8 is about half as good at killing PzIV as vice versa, not really a good idea for a KV-8 to go toe to toe but it can survive and soften up a PZIV until a SU-85 arrives.

Please correct my math if it's wrong, but from that I'd say the armor is an issue too. In beta I remember blowing up KV-8s like nothing (maybe it was rng luck?) so their flame DPS wasn't much of an issue if it was a trade of 1 gren squad before KV-8 got intercepted and blown up, but now I can't kill the damn things.


Is this calculation done for attacking frontal armour? If it is then you're doing it wrong. KV-8 is a heavy tank with a survivalibity of a heavy tank. Always flank it.
14 Sep 2013, 14:21 PM
#365
avatar of alexshiro

Posts: 62



Is this calculation done for attacking frontal armour? If it is then you're doing it wrong. KV-8 is a heavy tank with a survivalibity of a heavy tank. Always flank it.


I don't know, I used his numbers. Even flanking a KV-8 doesn't really do that much, a lot of shots still bounce.

Tbh, I use StuGs, they kill a lot better, but they need to be in position and have trouble chasing stuff down.
14 Sep 2013, 15:21 PM
#366
avatar of OZtheWiZARD

Posts: 1439

KV-8 flanked by PzIV will go down in 4 shots? Something like that.
14 Sep 2013, 17:40 PM
#367
avatar of wooof

Posts: 950 | Subs: 1

those were the front armor numbers, the rear armor for p4 is 80 and the kv8 has 120.

p4 kills a kv8 from the back in about 6.5 shots on average. that only takes about 34 seconds.

kv8 kills a p4 from the back in roughly 19 shots on average. that takes about 60 seconds.


so yes the p4 does gain an advantage when attacking from the rear. a p4 kills the kv8 in 63% of the time it takes the kv8 from the front. from the rear, it drops to 57%. the problem is driving around the back of a kv8 can get you overextended, making the p4 an easy target for su85s. there are certainly situations when flanking the kv8 is advisable though.
14 Sep 2013, 17:43 PM
#368
avatar of =][=mmortal

Posts: 215

KV-8 flanked by PzIV will go down in 4 shots? Something like that.


kv-8 flanked by two p4s didnt go down in about 30 seconds of shooting, see the above replay. kv8s armor is very heavy. I had an easier time shooting the is2
14 Sep 2013, 18:00 PM
#369
avatar of wooof

Posts: 950 | Subs: 1



kv-8 flanked by two p4s didnt go down in about 30 seconds of shooting, see the above replay. kv8s armor is very heavy. I had an easier time shooting the is2


well my calculations are all just averages. the minimum it could take is 6 shots, but theres no limit to how many it might take. RNG can really screw you over sometimes. i havent watched the replay, but maybe you werent completely behind the kv8? if you were hitting rear armor, you shouldve penetrated over 92% of the time, so it really shouldnt take long at all. maybe RNG really really hated you that game.
14 Sep 2013, 18:19 PM
#370
avatar of alexshiro

Posts: 62

Mind you, KV-8 isn't that much slower that PzIV, if you try to circle it it can circle you back, turning the front and side armor and I'm not sure how shooting the side works.
14 Sep 2013, 18:37 PM
#371
avatar of wooof

Posts: 950 | Subs: 1



theres a line drawn across the middle of vehicles. hitting a tank in the green will be front armor, hitting in the read is rear armor. there is no side armor value. this means you dont have to get completely behind a tank to hit its rear armor.
14 Sep 2013, 18:39 PM
#372
avatar of Endeav

Posts: 170



For some reason one of the IV's continually missed at that range; probably due to vehicle movement. A lot of those shots hit the frontal side armor (weird term, but front armor supposedly covers half the model, and rear armor the other half, like in the picture that wooof posted). I don't think the rear armor ever bounced a hit, but the frontal armor and the side frontal armor did.
14 Sep 2013, 18:54 PM
#373
avatar of wooof

Posts: 950 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Sep 2013, 18:39 PMEndeav
[youtube]www.youtube.com/embed/FN9B_LHGAOM[/youtube]



nice embed endeav, keep trying. but immortal, you got screwed. thats some of the worst luck ive ever seen haha
14 Sep 2013, 18:57 PM
#374
avatar of OZtheWiZARD

Posts: 1439

Seeking of luck. I've lost 3 squads last game due to rifle grenade 1 shooting buildings.
14 Sep 2013, 22:16 PM
#375
avatar of VonMecha

Posts: 419

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Sep 2013, 18:39 PMEndeav


For some reason one of the IV's continually missed at that range; probably due to vehicle movement. A lot of those shots hit the frontal side armor (weird term, but front armor supposedly covers half the model, and rear armor the other half, like in the picture that wooof posted). I don't think the rear armor ever bounced a hit, but the frontal armor and the side frontal armor did.


Pz4s are not tank destroyers so you should never expect them to be able to kill a kv8. All you need to kill a kv 8 is is 2 panthers or one elephant or 22 shrek squads or 45 paks. And its dead easy.
14 Sep 2013, 22:24 PM
#376
avatar of VonMecha

Posts: 419


On the topic, I think the KV8 is a little too good atm and needs some adjusting but whenever people post stories like these...they just smack of hyperbole and don't do anything to support balance discussions. Post a replay instead of sharing stories. Far too often players complaining about balance exaggerate A LOT in their game anecdotes.


Pie in your face! Pie in your face!

oh my gosh you got pie in yo face!
15 Sep 2013, 01:48 AM
#377
avatar of =][=mmortal

Posts: 215

the real danger with the kv8 isnt that they will build 3 and rush your base, its that they will use 1 or 2x as part of a combined arms strategy with su85s or t34s.

Combined arms with good micro SHOULD always win the game for a player, but this unit offers too much utility and staying power for its cost as part of a soviet strategy

The current meta im seeing is shock heavy strategies with a normal tech to su85s at the 15min mark, and then buying a kv8 when the cps arrive, instead of just rushing the kv8 as a 4cp SURPRISE Buttsex! by itself.

The devs cant really control player builds as such, but if relic wants the unit to be used for high dps breakthroughs, as related in this post:

wooof:
back on topic, i talked to pqumsieh about kv8 a little.... he said the unit is designed to cause shock by killing quickly though.


then the the current defensive use of a kv8 in this meta turns it into an anti-infantry su85 limiting aggressive action by the german player.

A proper example of a shock weapon is the ostheer fht: high dps, squishy and pricey
15 Sep 2013, 15:51 PM
#378
avatar of Theodosios
Admin Red  Badge

Posts: 1554 | Subs: 7



Pz4s are not tank destroyers so you should never expect them to be able to kill a kv8. All you need to kill a kv 8 is is 2 panthers or one elephant or 22 shrek squads or 45 paks. And its dead easy.


Are you joking? Until I get 2 Panthers or one Elephant (or 22 shrek squads or 45 paks LOL) to counter one, ONE SINGLE unit the game is already lost. Such a braindead post...
15 Sep 2013, 17:29 PM
#379
avatar of alexshiro

Posts: 62



Are you joking? Until I get 2 Panthers or one Elephant (or 22 shrek squads or 45 paks LOL) to counter one, ONE SINGLE unit the game is already lost. Such a braindead post...


Yes, he is joking. It's not that funny tho.
16 Sep 2013, 05:01 AM
#380
avatar of Appleseed

Posts: 622



Are you joking? Until I get 2 Panthers or one Elephant (or 22 shrek squads or 45 paks LOL) to counter one, ONE SINGLE unit the game is already lost. Such a braindead post...


of course he is joking 22 shrek sqads? 45 paks? dam we don't even have the population to produce that many.

22 shrek sqads = 7920 MP and 2640 MU
45 paks = 16200 MP...

i think we just lost the game try to produce that many units to counter 1 tank:faint:
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