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russian armor

Soviet Sniper Fixed ?

29 Aug 2013, 02:36 AM
#41
avatar of JohanSchwarz

Posts: 409

Both sniper rifles do 80 damage and I assume ignore armour so that's why they outright kill any target as long as the shot connects. In the grand scheme of snipers vs mortar shells, tank shells, flamers, and grenades, I don't think an extra 40 HP is going to matter much 99% of the time, but again, RNG. The extra armour on the Ostheer helps with moving away or retreating from small arms fire at least.


To the contrary, it would actually have significant impact. A mortar shell landing directly on a model does 80 damage and it does less damage with the AoE. Since the ostheer sniper only has 40hp, it is currently insta-dying to a mortar shell simply landing near him, not directly on top. A buff of another 40hp would significantly improve his survivability in this regard.

At the moment, the ostheer sniper simply requires so much babying (and praying to RNG gods) to be worth his cost the majority of the time, especially if the russian player gets 120mm mortar.
29 Aug 2013, 02:50 AM
#42
avatar of Omega_Warrior

Posts: 2561



To the contrary, it would actually have significant impact. A mortar shell landing directly on a model does 80 damage and it does less damage with the AoE. Since the ostheer sniper only has 40hp, it is currently insta-dying to a mortar shell simply landing near him, not directly on top. A buff of another 40hp would significantly improve his survivability in this regard.

At the moment, the ostheer sniper simply requires so much babying (and praying to RNG gods) to be worth his cost the majority of the time, especially if the russian player gets 120mm mortar.

That would also have the effect of making it too hard to kill with small arms. They would need to lower the armor as welll for that to work.
29 Aug 2013, 03:10 AM
#43
avatar of Blovski

Posts: 480


That would also have the effect of making it too hard to kill with small arms. They would need to lower the armor as welll for that to work.


Though I'm not against lowering the armour necessarily, he would still be easier to kill with small arms than a single shock troop model. And the Soviet 2 man team would still have some advantages (direct tank or mortar hit on one model doesn't kill the squad, countersnipe, sprint... etc...) in terms of survivability.
29 Aug 2013, 03:11 AM
#44
avatar of Nullist

Posts: 2425

Permanently Banned

That would also have the effect of making it too hard to kill with small arms. They would need to lower the armor as welll for that to work.


Nope, because the shots would still hit one target, whereas on Sov, they are divided between two.
29 Aug 2013, 03:52 AM
#45
avatar of Ekko Tek

Posts: 139



To the contrary, it would actually have significant impact. A mortar shell landing directly on a model does 80 damage and it does less damage with the AoE. Since the ostheer sniper only has 40hp, it is currently insta-dying to a mortar shell simply landing near him, not directly on top. A buff of another 40hp would significantly improve his survivability in this regard.

At the moment, the ostheer sniper simply requires so much babying (and praying to RNG gods) to be worth his cost the majority of the time, especially if the russian player gets 120mm mortar.

My point was that a mortar shell landing on a sniper - any sniper - will kill it. I'm too lazy to go look up mortar damage at the moment but I'm positive a mortar shell does more than just 80 damage. There must be AoE damage in addition or something - if a mortar shell lands on a conscript or gren squad, it certainly regularly takes out more than just a single model. Just last night I lost Sov snipers to a mortar shell - so in terms of survivability I still don't think it will make much difference.
29 Aug 2013, 04:03 AM
#46
avatar of JohanSchwarz

Posts: 409

No, a mortar shell does at max 80 damage and the damage decreases as you go further away from the point of impact.

I'm not saying that a soviet sniper cannot be one-shotted by a mortar; if a mortar shell lands ontop of one member, the other member is probably going to die too as he/she only has 40hp. However, if the mortar shell lands to the left of the two members, the one closer to it will die, and the other one will live, losing you 90mp. In the ostheer case, the sniper will die, losing you 360mp.

There are a lot more possiblilities of a mortar round landing near the squad rather than on top of it and it is this issue that makes the ostheer sniper worthless most of the time.

Do note that tank shells and other projectiles also cause AoE, which means that the german sniper dies pretty much whenever anything sneezes at it.
29 Aug 2013, 04:51 AM
#47
avatar of Nullist

Posts: 2425

Permanently Banned
@Ekko Tek: The Ost Sniper only needs to be hit peripherally by any AoE shell, to die. I dont think anyone argues that either team should survive a direct mortar hit, though you seem to think that was the implied argument.

Ost Sniper is crap for the following reasons:
-It seems there may be something wrong with the RoF.
-Has to reveal itself twice as often vs enemy unit size.
-Each shot is worth far less economically and interms of enemy field presence.
-The extended camo is a "gimmick" that can just as well be mediated with better micro through cover.
-As a solo model, he takes ALL of incoming fire, rather than it being split between two.
-Dies to incidental ordnance if he is anywhere in the AoE.
-Cannot countersnipe.
-Cannot be mounted into a moving vehicle to fire.

Its overall a shit unit that doesnt perform cost effectively and doesnt asymmetrically match upto its mirror.

I recommend 80 hp, and a true 2x rate of fire compared to Sov, and changing its camo to work the same as Sov Sniper.
29 Aug 2013, 06:55 AM
#48
avatar of Omega_Warrior

Posts: 2561

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Aug 2013, 03:11 AMNullist


Nope, because the shots would still hit one target, whereas on Sov, they are divided between two.

What are you talking about. If a single ost sniper had the same HP as the soviet snipers combined, plus the higher armor value, it would take about 50% longer to kill. Spliting that hp between two men doesn't mean it magically takes longer to kill.
29 Aug 2013, 07:03 AM
#49
avatar of Nullist

Posts: 2425

Permanently Banned

What are you talking about. If a single ost sniper had the same HP as the soviet snipers combined, plus the higher armor value, it would take about 50% longer to kill. Spliting that hp between two men doesn't mean it magically takes longer to kill.


One target=All weapons focus it.
Two targets=Weapon focus is split.

Use your brain. This is a simple concept.
29 Aug 2013, 08:07 AM
#50
avatar of IronRoman

Posts: 329

Permanently Banned
Soviet sniper team is OP and is a broken mechanic. Make 1 man sniper teams for both factions. /thread
29 Aug 2013, 08:52 AM
#51
avatar of Mauser

Posts: 255

I totally agree, making the soviet sniper one man would be so much simpler of a solution and solve all the problems. I really don't get why they had to change from the vCoH one man snipers. Might be cos they got hung up on enemy at the gates.

Regardless, I think there is enough assymetry in the abilities of the snipers(flare vs incediary round). Just make them both one man with the same hp/armor/damage/rof/range. Alternatively make the german snipers 2 man teams(although i much prefer the former solution).
29 Aug 2013, 14:29 PM
#52
avatar of JohanSchwarz

Posts: 409

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Aug 2013, 08:52 AMMauser
Might be cos they got hung up on enemy at the gates.


Pretty much.
29 Aug 2013, 14:42 PM
#53
avatar of Ekko Tek

Posts: 139

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Aug 2013, 07:03 AMNullist


One target=All weapons focus it.
Two targets=Weapon focus is split.

Use your brain. This is a simple concept.

You're missing his point completely. If the two targets individually have 1/2 the health of the one target, the time to kill will be the same. For example, 5 DPS vs. 40 health will score a kill in the same time 10 DPS vs 80 health.
29 Aug 2013, 14:48 PM
#54
avatar of Nullist

Posts: 2425

Permanently Banned
Which would be equal.

You sort of killed your own argument.

That is exactly why Ost should be 80hp.
29 Aug 2013, 15:54 PM
#55
avatar of Z3r07
Donator 11

Posts: 1006

What about if Ostheer Sniper has the same ability as vCOH snipers ? Ostheer would have better "camouflage" which gives them the ability to toggle cloakk and like in vCOH, they are a lot slower when cloak ?
29 Aug 2013, 17:54 PM
#56
avatar of Mauser

Posts: 255

that wouldnt solve the 2man vs 1 man scenario.
29 Aug 2013, 18:07 PM
#57
avatar of Omega_Warrior

Posts: 2561

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Aug 2013, 07:03 AMNullist


One target=All weapons focus it.
Two targets=Weapon focus is split.

Use your brain. This is a simple concept.

The weapon focus is split but the same number of shots are being fired.

If gary has 1 cup with 80 cherries and Mary has 2 cups with 40 cherries, and they each eat 10 cherries every 10 seconds then how long does it take each of them to finish all their cherries?

Now what if Gary can only eat 7 cherries every 10 seconds, how long does it take both of them to finish their cherries now?

It gets a bit more complicated if you consider the difference in the squad size firing, but if you use cons and vanilla grens as the standard their damage output is very similar.
29 Aug 2013, 18:09 PM
#58
avatar of Nullist

Posts: 2425

Permanently Banned

The weapon focus is split but the same number of shots are being fired.

If gary has a cup with 80 cherries and Mary has two cups with 40 cherries, and they each eat 10 cherries every 10 seconds then how long does it take each of them to finish all their cherries?

Now what if Gary can only eat 7 cherries every 10 seconds, how long does it take both of them to finish their cherries now?


If 10 rifles focus one guy with 40hp, and 10 rifles split fire between 2 guys with 40hp.
Which dies first?
29 Aug 2013, 18:13 PM
#59
avatar of Omega_Warrior

Posts: 2561

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Aug 2013, 18:09 PMNullist


If 10 rifles focus one guy with 40hp, and 10 rifles split fire between 2 guys with 40hp.
Which dies first?

But we were talking about increasing the snipers HP to 80. Did you forget the post that we were even arguing about.

"Since the ostheer sniper only has 40hp, it is currently insta-dying to a mortar shell simply landing near him, not directly on top. A buff of another 40hp would significantly improve his survivability in this regard."- JohanSchwarz
29 Aug 2013, 18:13 PM
#60
avatar of Ekko Tek

Posts: 139

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Aug 2013, 14:48 PMNullist
Which would be equal.

You sort of killed your own argument.

That is exactly why Ost should be 80hp.

This is getting tedious, even for me. I was assuming the 2 armour would = 80 HP and the RNG would co-operate. If a better change would be just a straight up 80 HP and 1 armour, then fine by me.
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