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Bring back two man/woman soviet snipers [poll]

20 May 2018, 10:29 AM
#21
avatar of nhiscool

Posts: 112

I still don't know why they "semi" nerfed the Soviet sniper, there are games where they rack up 50+ kills and the Soviets still get facerolled in the games.

Not gonna lie, I really don't think the community agree with any patches made to the game so far. Usually when a major patch hits you get MORE players to play the game.

I'm already seeing posts about longer queue times in the community hub of steam.

Just wished both sides were more balanced, it's like people LIKE to struggle against Axis tanks and have them faceroll you in every game.

Every UKF player is pissed off how the bren carrier got an armor reduction, made absolutely no sense. Just random tweaking of numbers to nerf early game UKF, no reasoning at all, just because they wanted it weaker I guess. Build diversity? I guess 4 Infantry section + MG is the staple now.

A vast majority of players, even newbies come in and complain about rifle nades. Just saw a 1v1 yesterday where the UKF completely dominated the map (Cause Wher was trolling with double engy double mg) Then he makes a puma and 222, completely dominates the game. Pak kills early cromwell like it was nothing.

Everyone swept the Ultra Team tournament under the carpet when we saw 100% axis winrate, even the high level allied players we see off of VOD's can't dodge rifle grenades, or get their vehicles destroyed because of free Axis smoke, powerful AT guns and the faust combination.

I don't see why we didn't see an LMG nerf, for an ammo decrease for Volks. Or a weapons nerf for Volksgrens to stop them from blobbing. There's still a 10% reduced suppression for Volksgren bulletin rolling around.

Sometimes it feels like Axis armor has more sight radius, when you move infantry towards tanks they seem to get the first shot.. also encouraging vehicle spam with no infantry support. You always see Axis diving with vehicles like it was nothing, while Allies dive and lose all their vehicles thanks to faust and superior AT gun range.

They can faust, rifle grenade spam all game, and still afford arty call ins and weapon upgrades lol There are constant patches over and over and over that dumb down the game.




20 May 2018, 10:50 AM
#22
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 2622 | Subs: 6

Everyone swept the Ultra Team tournament under the carpet when we saw 100% axis winrate, even the high level allied players we see off of VOD's can't dodge rifle grenades, or get their vehicles destroyed because of free Axis smoke, powerful AT guns and the faust combination


Yeah let's take a grand total of 5 games and pretend it's a valid sample size to make claims about faction dominance. And then let's conveniently ignore how in the finals the Allies won 3 out of 4 games (with the one win for Axis being a very tight one) or how in the other semi finals Allies won 2 out of 3 games.

You complain about rifle grenades but what about UKF/USF nuke grenades? ZiS and Su76 penetrating heavy armor frontally at huge ranges? UC and clown cars running rampant against OKW in the first five minutes? Soviets being able to field large armies AND having resources/popcap to spare for 2-3 arty pieces? A 10% veterancy boost bulletin for mainline Riflemen infantry?


Allies have an equal amount of this stuff.



20 May 2018, 11:20 AM
#23
avatar of RagnarTheGamer
Master Modmaker Badge

Posts: 294

I just realised, why don't make soviet sniper works like officers squads? I mean, if sniper was killed - squad lose possibility to sniping models, if spotter was killed - LOS become greatly reduced or some other strong debuff.

Currently, german officers squads losing their abillities, if model of the officer killed.

I really like this idea of heaving 1 sniper and 1 spotter.
20 May 2018, 12:25 PM
#24
avatar of ferwiner
Donator 11

Posts: 2885

I am all for revert. This change was supposed to sacrifice better, assymetric design in favour of a copy paste to support ballance. What really happened is that soviet sniper now shoots more often, is easier to cloak, takes less damage from automatic weapons and explosives and doesn't bleed soviet player with reinforcement. So in fact for the sake of ballance we changed ballanced and well designed unit into a boring copy paste that is also OP...

It is also important to mention that right now the only viable counter to soviet sniper seems to be countersnipe. It is a problem as well as coh2 snipers were initially designed to avoid countersniping. Initially, ostheer sniper cloaked faster than soviet sniper could kill it (unless ostheer player fucked it up) and soviet sniper also could only be double tapped if overextended. That way you had to actually use sniper counters, and sniper wars could be avoided. I would love to get such a good design back.

I just realised, why don't make soviet sniper works like officers squads? I mean, if sniper was killed - squad lose possibility to sniping models, if spotter was killed - LOS become greatly reduced or some other strong debuff.

Currently, german officers squads losing their abillities, if model of the officer killed.


That is a good idea. It has been suggested in the past, but it didn't make it to broad audience.
20 May 2018, 14:27 PM
#25
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 2893 | Subs: 1

This change was supposed to sacrifice better, assymetric design in favour...


It is still assymetrical, Ostheer sniper is better in every angles. :thumbsup:
Not
20 May 2018, 14:42 PM
#26
avatar of Not

Posts: 46

I am all for revert. This change was supposed to sacrifice better, assymetric design in favour of a copy paste to support ballance. What really happened is that soviet sniper now shoots more often, is easier to cloak, takes less damage from automatic weapons and explosives and doesn't bleed soviet player with reinforcement. So in fact for the sake of ballance we changed ballanced and well designed unit into a boring copy paste that is also OP...

It is also important to mention that right now the only viable counter to soviet sniper seems to be countersnipe. It is a problem as well as coh2 snipers were initially designed to avoid countersniping. Initially, ostheer sniper cloaked faster than soviet sniper could kill it (unless ostheer player fucked it up) and soviet sniper also could only be double tapped if overextended. That way you had to actually use sniper counters, and sniper wars could be avoided. I would love to get such a good design back.



That is a good idea. It has been suggested in the past, but it didn't make it to broad audience.

Thing is that building a SOV sniper requires you making T1, while ignoring T2's support weapons and the most important of it - the AT guns, that could potentially save you from sniper-hunter 222. Now sacrifice of T2 don't make any sence, thanks to the nerfs.
OST has all units in one bulding with more DPS.

And yeah, to counter OST sniper you should have T1, to kill it with light halftrack.
T-70 is not taking into consideration since it comes on 11 minute mark, if you had everything good with a fuel ofc and it can be too late.


20 May 2018, 15:14 PM
#27
avatar of FelixTHM

Posts: 417 | Subs: 1

votes slightly in favour of a revert, makes you wonder where this change came from.



20 May 2018, 15:21 PM
#28
avatar of FelixTHM

Posts: 417 | Subs: 1

I still don't know why they "semi" nerfed the Soviet sniper, there are games where they rack up 50+ kills and the Soviets still get facerolled in the games.

Not gonna lie, I really don't think the community agree with any patches made to the game so far. Usually when a major patch hits you get MORE players to play the game.

I'm already seeing posts about longer queue times in the community hub of steam.

Just wished both sides were more balanced, it's like people LIKE to struggle against Axis tanks and have them faceroll you in every game.

Every UKF player is pissed off how the bren carrier got an armor reduction, made absolutely no sense. Just random tweaking of numbers to nerf early game UKF, no reasoning at all, just because they wanted it weaker I guess. Build diversity? I guess 4 Infantry section + MG is the staple now.

A vast majority of players, even newbies come in and complain about rifle nades. Just saw a 1v1 yesterday where the UKF completely dominated the map (Cause Wher was trolling with double engy double mg) Then he makes a puma and 222, completely dominates the game. Pak kills early cromwell like it was nothing.

Everyone swept the Ultra Team tournament under the carpet when we saw 100% axis winrate, even the high level allied players we see off of VOD's can't dodge rifle grenades, or get their vehicles destroyed because of free Axis smoke, powerful AT guns and the faust combination.

I don't see why we didn't see an LMG nerf, for an ammo decrease for Volks. Or a weapons nerf for Volksgrens to stop them from blobbing. There's still a 10% reduced suppression for Volksgren bulletin rolling around.

Sometimes it feels like Axis armor has more sight radius, when you move infantry towards tanks they seem to get the first shot.. also encouraging vehicle spam with no infantry support. You always see Axis diving with vehicles like it was nothing, while Allies dive and lose all their vehicles thanks to faust and superior AT gun range.

They can faust, rifle grenade spam all game, and still afford arty call ins and weapon upgrades lol There are constant patches over and over and over that dumb down the game.







You're ranked 1000+. And in 2 v 2, no less. At your skill level even if Shermans had a Pershing's stats, you'd still complain "Axis tanks OP why do I keep losing".


Almost everytime I play a top 50 player as Allies, I get steamrolled. Almost everytime I play a top 50 player as Axis, I get steamrolled. Being bad at the game isn't something balance patches can fix.
20 May 2018, 15:37 PM
#29
avatar of zarok47

Posts: 570

Biased pole about a contraversial change. This should be fun.


Being bad at the game isn't something balance patches can fix.


Can I have this for my signature? It's exactly what I am looking for.
20 May 2018, 16:24 PM
#30
avatar of numbernin6

Posts: 18

Two man soviet snipers surrounded by guards rifle's with ptrs are pretty much un-counter able unless the soviet player really messes up. And even if you would force the retreat on the two man team, with the appropriate counter chasing it, it still would not die. Now it can be counter sniped, atleast it can be countered by wehrmacht players in the form of their own sniper.As with OKW, which does not have snipers, have cheap aggressive 5 man infantry which can aggressively push through it.

1 man team is a good change that allows wehrmact to actually stand a chance against it on an open map.
20 May 2018, 16:41 PM
#31
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 4570

Two man soviet snipers surrounded by guards rifle's with ptrs are pretty much un-counter able unless the soviet player really messes up. And even if you would force the retreat on the two man team, with the appropriate counter chasing it, it still would not die. Now it can be counter sniped, atleast it can be countered by wehrmacht players in the form of their own sniper.As with OKW, which does not have snipers, have cheap aggressive 5 man infantry which can aggressively push through it.

1 man team is a good change that allows wehrmact to actually stand a chance against it on an open map.

Thing is, a sniper surrounded by guards is 360+330(i feel like it got raised but don't recall)x as many as it takes to be "surrounded" so let's say it's just 2 guards that's like 1000mp in 1 single place. Soviet lack bunkers or any means of holding so they are practically giving you the map in order to spearhead you. Now it's arguably worse because the increased sniping speed means they can possibly keep you well enough bled that getting out your own sniper to counters snipe it is going to be an uphill battle as it is.
Yea it's easier to kill but it's going to hurt you a hell of a lot more until you do kill it (while still being worse than the OST variant)
20 May 2018, 16:50 PM
#32
avatar of numbernin6

Posts: 18


Thing is, a sniper surrounded by guards is 360+330(i feel like it got raised but don't recall)x as many as it takes to be "surrounded" so let's say it's just 2 guards that's like 1000mp in 1 single place. Soviet lack bunkers or any means of holding so they are practically giving you the map in order to spearhead you. Now it's arguably worse because the increased sniping speed means they can possibly keep you well enough bled that getting out your own sniper to counters snipe it is going to be an uphill battle as it is.
Yea it's easier to kill but it's going to hurt you a hell of a lot more until you do kill it (while still being worse than the OST variant)


ost sniper should have a higher firing rate, a it has 6 man squads to shoot at, you shoot a gren, it can no longer recrew team weapons. Snipers ruin earl;y game infantry fights, cause you to get frustrated and over extend. Any nerfs, or outright removal from the game I would agree with. Just my opinion.
20 May 2018, 17:02 PM
#33
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 4570



ost sniper should have a higher firing rate, a it has 6 man squads to shoot at, you shoot a gren, it can no longer recrew team weapons. Snipers ruin earl;y game infantry fights, cause you to get frustrated and over extend. Any nerfs, or outright removal from the game I would agree with. Just my opinion.


I don't disagree the OST sniper should shoot faster, OST always has the smallest squads so anything less would be unacceptable but paying the exact same for less is equally unacceptable. Keep in mind that along with the OST sniper the player always has access to a MG and always has access to a snare (well... Like they have to build grens but... Like it's there...) OST sniper is better and naturally accessed and supported.
Soviet sniper is a bigger risk than before but also a MUCH bigger reward. Double sniper will still force retreat and mortars aren't going to help much only thing is now when that second model drops a 3rd might follow if you don't slam retreat quick enough.
20 May 2018, 17:14 PM
#34
avatar of numbernin6

Posts: 18



I don't disagree the OST sniper should shoot faster, OST always has the smallest squads so anything less would be unacceptable but paying the exact same for less is equally unacceptable. Keep in mind that along with the OST sniper the player always has access to a MG and always has access to a snare (well... Like they have to build grens but... Like it's there...) OST sniper is better and naturally accessed and supported.
Soviet sniper is a bigger risk than before but also a MUCH bigger reward. Double sniper will still force retreat and mortars aren't going to help much only thing is now when that second model drops a 3rd might follow if you don't slam retreat quick enough.


Still the only way to kill them is if your opponent makes a mistake. Or you potentially sacrifice over extended light vehicles / infantry squads on the flank to kill it, and you still need atleast two unpgraded rifle type squads to kill it. Even with the perfect flank. Yes they are more of a risk now. as they should be, for something with such long range, self sighting and lethiality.
20 May 2018, 18:19 PM
#35
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 3016



I don't disagree the OST sniper should shoot faster, OST always has the smallest squads so anything less would be unacceptable but paying the exact same for less is equally unacceptable. Keep in mind that along with the OST sniper the player always has access to a MG and always has access to a snare (well... Like they have to build grens but... Like it's there...) OST sniper is better and naturally accessed and supported.
Soviet sniper is a bigger risk than before but also a MUCH bigger reward. Double sniper will still force retreat and mortars aren't going to help much only thing is now when that second model drops a 3rd might follow if you don't slam retreat quick enough.

The ost sniper still has a higher fire rate right?
20 May 2018, 18:29 PM
#36
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 2622 | Subs: 6


Thing is, a sniper surrounded by guards is 360+330(i feel like it got raised but don't recall)x as many as it takes to be "surrounded" so let's say it's just 2 guards that's like 1000mp in 1 single place. Soviet lack bunkers or any means of holding so they are practically giving you the map in order to spearhead you.


Don't forget that this issue is split between 1v1/2v2 and 3v3/4v4 games. Concentrating that much MP in one spot will not sacrifice map control in team games because most maps are relatively smaller and usually have corridor battles. It was practically impossible to win against. Now there's a much bigger chance to counter it because Wehr can countersnipe and OKW has more chance to kill it with flanks and pushes.
20 May 2018, 20:46 PM
#37
avatar of TheGentlemenTroll

Posts: 1009 | Subs: 1



Almost everytime I play a top 50 player as Allies, I get steamrolled. Almost everytime I play a top 50 player as Axis, I get steamrolled.


This is a relatable statement

jump backJump back to quoted post20 May 2018, 15:37 PMzarok47
Biased pole about a contraversial change. This should be fun.



Can I have this for my signature? It's exactly what I am looking for.




Not if I take it first :snfPeter:
21 May 2018, 02:57 AM
#38
avatar of miragefla
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 1278 | Subs: 14

I wish the Soviet sniper remained a two man unit.

The basic rework I've suggested before in the past is simply don't let the sniper rifle transfer to the spotter and move the spotter's health to 80/82; sniper gets higher target priority in the squad as well. You still have that durability that other snipers would not have but you lose the sniper model, the only thing you have is being alive.

The extreme rework would be making both their rifles act like a souped-up Pathfinder/JLI weapon where they deal steady damage at range and can crit wounded models. Possibly have them work like DoW II where they are a pseudo set-up team and then give them additional abilities since they're losing raw killing power. They would also receive better health in this version since they're vulnerable to full health units.
21 May 2018, 07:25 AM
#39
avatar of zarok47

Posts: 570

I wish the Soviet sniper remained a two man unit.

-stuff about rework-


Why?

Why should the sov sniper be more survivable, the very foundation of the damned snipers is their glass cannon madness: Kill a unit every time it fires, therefor it should die fast.

Why break the sniper model even more by giving sov sniper 2 man? Why make it resistant to counter snipers, one of the few tools to fight snipers?

It doesn't make sense.

21 May 2018, 08:26 AM
#40
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 2893 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post21 May 2018, 07:25 AMzarok47


Why?

Why should the sov sniper be more survivable, the very foundation of the damned snipers is their glass cannon madness: Kill a unit every time it fires, therefor it should die fast.

Why break the sniper model even more by giving sov sniper 2 man? Why make it resistant to counter snipers, one of the few tools to fight snipers?

It doesn't make sense.



Why should the Ostheer sniper snipe faster and have better camo?

---

Funfact, did you know since Ostheer start with more manpower and T1 building costing 80 mp (160 for Soviet) you can field faster a first sniper.

So un resume:
2x Pio + 1x Sniper > 2x CE + 1x sniper, cost less and hit the field faster.
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