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I strongly oppose the Soviet sniper change

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19 Apr 2018, 02:03 AM
#21
avatar of SturmTigerVorgo

Posts: 307

You don't have even one game as WM so you opinion is completely biased and uninformed. Sov sniper retarded design should've been changed long time ago.
19 Apr 2018, 07:50 AM
#23
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 4087 | Subs: 1

You don't have even one game as WM so you opinion is completely biased and uninformed. Sov sniper retarded design should've been changed long time ago.


there were better ways to change it without making it a shittier version of the ost one.
buffing its counters is a way (they did that)
increasing target size is a way (they did that too)

call it a scout sniper squad and make it a long ranged, 2 man jeager squad that can camo and fire flares (from camo even)

a straight up worse sniper for the same price while bringing nothing to the table useful or unique is a lazy cop out
19 Apr 2018, 08:37 AM
#24
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3221


But still worse that the ost one. For the same price.


It's shooting 4 man squads. Were it a clone of the Ost one it'd be a big advantage to the Soviets.
19 Apr 2018, 09:38 AM
#25
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 4087 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Apr 2018, 08:37 AMLago


It's shooting 4 man squads. Were it a clone of the Ost one it'd be a big advantage to the Soviets.

Im not arguing that, im not saying it needs the killing power of the ost sniper im saying its worse for the same price. If its going down to 1 man it needs something more.

The brit sniper survives while being slower firing than the ost one but its got: light AT, arty flares, a critical vs armour at vet 1, a MASSIVE -33% target size at vet 2 (thats HUUGE) strip all that away and you have the soviet sniper, that and a flare that is FAR more effecient to get on a mortar
19 Apr 2018, 10:19 AM
#26
avatar of insaneHoshi

Posts: 911

This combines the nerf to Guards and PTRS, make Soviet sniper a easy prey for the Axis.


If only SU had some sort of infantry that could sprint and throw an anti tank grenade, hmmm.
19 Apr 2018, 11:03 AM
#27
avatar of Cultist_kun

Posts: 295 | Subs: 1


Because of small ost sizes, do you have any idea why it HAS 2 models? To make up for its 4 man balanced rof. Maybe the ost sniper needs to lose its ROF then if its going to be the exact same price and a completely inferiour one inferiour one from individual stats to availible support.


One more time, soviet sniper was BUFFED in return. It has BETTER ROF after romoving one model. Its not just blank model removal.

It it start looking like ppl like you are "give ost sniper for soviets or dont touch the model".

I agree, it needs better vet, better vet 1 ability. But second model is gone, forget about it.
19 Apr 2018, 12:02 PM
#28
avatar of FichtenMoped
Editor in Chief Badge
Patrion 310

Posts: 4680 | Subs: 3

>change not even live
>people discuss it as it is

/thread
19 Apr 2018, 12:56 PM
#29
avatar of Jade Buddha

Posts: 13

>change not even live
>people discuss it as it is

/thread


Its not like its a small stat change that requures playing it to feel the change. Most of the criticism ive seen (and agree with) is that its a homogenization. Which it is, dont need to play the patch to have an opinion on that.
19 Apr 2018, 14:25 PM
#30
avatar of FichtenMoped
Editor in Chief Badge
Patrion 310

Posts: 4680 | Subs: 3



Its not like its a small stat change that requures playing it to feel the change. Most of the criticism ive seen (and agree with) is that its a homogenization. Which it is, dont need to play the patch to have an opinion on that.


The argument of homogenization is valid and I see that. But apart from that nobody here actually knows how this actually plays out in the end but everyone is imagining the wildest things. Just wait and see how it turns out in the end :)
19 Apr 2018, 20:20 PM
#31
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 4087 | Subs: 1



One more time, soviet sniper was BUFFED in return. It has BETTER ROF after romoving one model. Its not just blank model removal.

It it start looking like ppl like you are "give ost sniper for soviets or dont touch the model".

I agree, it needs better vet, better vet 1 ability. But second model is gone, forget about it.


Im not saying it needs the second model im saying being a wprse version of the ost sniper is an unbalanced decision. Im not saying it needs to be the same as the ost sniper im saying BEING WORSE AND COSTING THE SAME IS BAD BALANCE.
Would it be balanced if they copied the brit sniper but removed the light AT, the critical shot, the -33% rec acc at vet 2 and the arty flares and called it a day? Fuck no. Would it be balanced if the t34 cost the same as the p4? No. You cant have a direct clone of a unit, but made shittier, costing the same and call it balance.
19 Apr 2018, 21:57 PM
#32
avatar of ZombiFrancis

Posts: 2742 | Subs: 1

Perhaps I'm being argumentative, but one could analyze how an allied sniper can reduce an enemy squads damage output by 20 to 25% versus 16.7 to 20%, due to squad sizes without taking into account slot_items. Still, squad sizes are a very real factor. Decrewing a 6 man zis vs 4 man paks is a whole different ballgame

I wonder if giving the soviet sniper a PTRS and more or less cloning the brit sniper would've been too crazy. That's a change I have never tested.
19 Apr 2018, 22:38 PM
#33
avatar of ferwiner
Donator 11

Posts: 2885



The argument of homogenization is valid and I see that. But apart from that nobody here actually knows how this actually plays out in the end but everyone is imagining the wildest things. Just wait and see how it turns out in the end :)


The problem is, that as far as good design practices go, homogenisation is a disqualifying offence on its own. Especially now that we are left with such a little number of differences between factions compared to their initial design.

So the question is whether there is a point to implement and playtest the ballance of a change that is bad by design.
20 Apr 2018, 07:58 AM
#34
avatar of ElSlayer

Posts: 1605 | Subs: 2

I mostly play 4v4 as Soviets with my friends and use snipers A LOT.

• Hitpoints increased from 64 to 82

I think that this change alone is a HUGE buff that will decrease bleed for sniper team user as well as remove one hit kills from indirect fire.

Now add increased rate of fire on top of that.

I don't see how this change can be welcomed from axis perspective.
20 Apr 2018, 12:25 PM
#35
avatar of Nosliw

Posts: 515

I mostly play 4v4 as Soviets with my friends and use snipers A LOT.

• Hitpoints increased from 64 to 82

I think that this change alone is a HUGE buff that will decrease bleed for sniper team user as well as remove one hit kills from indirect fire.

Now add increased rate of fire on top of that.

I don't see how this change can be welcomed from axis perspective.


Did you fail to see the change, that the sniper team size is being reduced from two to 1 man/woman? That means health is now from 64x2=128 to 82, which is definitely a nerf (and a much needed one, at that).
20 Apr 2018, 13:03 PM
#36
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2118 | Subs: 1


Sure, let's give him Ost sniper stats, so it would remove Ost inf play completely. Do you even have slightest undertandment why it HAS to have slightly worst stats?


I don´t think he realizes that for snipers it makes a huge difference if they fight 4 men or 6 men squads....
20 Apr 2018, 13:17 PM
#37
avatar of Dullahan

Posts: 1383

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Apr 2018, 16:48 PMLago
Remember that the Soviet sniper's offensive abilities have been buffed in return: it fires and cloaks faster now.


Just another example of how the game has been and continues to be homogenized.

Wehr sniper had significant advantages over the Soviet sniper, but he was weaker to being countersniped. Now both snipers are equally vulnerable to countersnipe but their capabilities are more similar, although unless they are carbon copies of each other then the Soviet one is just plain weaker now rather than having some advantages and some disadvantages.

Implementing this change at the same time they also buff light vehicles versus snipers is pretty much going to kill sniper play for Soviets.

Combined with the garrison and mortar nerfs this just pushes the game even further into generalist infantry spam into vehicle rushes. Ever since release everything that actually requires positioning and tactics gets nerfed and basic infantry get buffs lol.
God forbid that Riflemen/Conscript/Grenadier/Volksgrenadier spam builds have weaknesses.

imo this change belongs in the garbage bin along with ideas like "Soviet weapons teams should have 4 men not 6" and "USF should have a mortar because everyone else does"





20 Apr 2018, 13:21 PM
#38
avatar of ElSlayer

Posts: 1605 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Apr 2018, 12:25 PMNosliw


Did you fail to see the change, that the sniper team size is being reduced from two to 1 man/woman? That means health is now from 64x2=128 to 82, which is definitely a nerf (and a much needed one, at that).

I had thought that someone may think that I've missed it, but I decided not to bother with editing my post.
Yes, I saw this and took this into consideration when I was forming my opinion, which I presented in previous post.

Sometimes I lose one of two models to small arms, but only when I get too greedy or one of the models A-moved into MG range or something like that. I almost never lose whole sniper team to small arms fire. This is probably because of "headbutting" nature of 4v4 games, which I prefer.

But I do lose them to mortar shells even when I closely monitor them and aware of mortars around. That's why I like 82 hp + increased rate of fire more than 2 models with 64 hp.


[...]

Combined with the garrison and mortar nerfs this just pushes the game even further into generalist infantry spam into vehicle rushes. Ever since release everything that actually requires positioning and tactics gets nerfed and basic infantry get buffs lol.
God forbid that Riflemen/Conscript/Grenadier/Volksgrenadier spam builds have weaknesses.

imo this change belongs in the garbage bin along with ideas like "Soviet weapons teams should have 4 men not 6" and "USF should have a mortar because everyone else does"

Well said.
I was alway fan of vanilla factions because they promote combined arms play unlike everything that came in DLCs.
20 Apr 2018, 14:28 PM
#39
avatar of Felinewolfie

Posts: 820 | Subs: 5



Im not saying it needs the second model im saying being a wprse version of the ost sniper is an unbalanced decision. Im not saying it needs to be the same as the ost sniper im saying BEING WORSE AND COSTING THE SAME IS BAD BALANCE.
Would it be balanced if they copied the brit sniper but removed the light AT, the critical shot, the -33% rec acc at vet 2 and the arty flares and called it a day? Fuck no. Would it be balanced if the t34 cost the same as the p4? No. You cant have a direct clone of a unit, but made shittier, costing the same and call it balance.


You are correct, and wrong. Look at the big picture.

- Sniper 2 man : With bolt action rifle. Really hard to vet.
- Changed 1 Sniper 1 man : With Semi auto Rifle. Easier to vet.
- It is easier to stealth. Than 2 man.
- It keeps stealth when moving from cover to cover 2 sec instead of 3 sec (Like wehr)
- It's health went from 45-60 to 82. (Like wehr)
- Wehr rate of fire changed from ? to 1.5 (british sniper also changed to 1.5)
- brit sniper had heavy AT sniper rifle. Buffed to semi auto from bolt action (!!!)
- Penal anti vehicle satchel nerfed (5 vs 10 range)
- Penal anti tank rifle nerfed (on bounce?)
- Guards nerfed
- 222 Finally got 1.5x on it's MG
- 222 Armor buffed (doubled!)

- Snipers now shoot 100% in garrison now (Germans loooove garrison)
(So do brits)
- Mortars weaker vs out of garrison (helps sniper) and buffed vs garrison (wehr nerf)
- Turbomortars nerfed (wehr nerf)

- Kubel lost it's anti sniper. Pz2, Puma gained.
- UC lost it's anti sniper. Now AEC3.

Old Sov Sniper reinforce cost was ~ 135 for it's useless model. Leaving only a bolt rifle
sniper with low ROF and low health. If you ask me, this is ultimately : German getting what
they asked for, but having to pay something in return, making it, ultimately, a level exchange.

Germans said 222 needed buff. They got it. Penal/Guard AT nerf, they got it. SOV Sniper 2 man
needed to be 1 man, they got it.

But they had to pay dearly in return.

Take a deep breath, and see how it works out.
Ultimately, I think 2x SOV 1x man sniper combo will decimate way more now that they have
semi auto rifles rather than slow aim bolt action rifles with low accuracy. (esp with the
100% vs garrisoned).

What I want now, is for the MG bunker (and american Fighting position) MG to be snipeable.
Actually, even the Flexible MG/Tank commanders to be snipeable. They could be specifically
killed in COH1, so...

Seeing top hatch guys atop of tanks be indestructible drives me nuts :)

Yes, SOV sniper is now a - very - slightly worse than Wehr sniper clone.
This actually works to our advantage, when all is taken into account.

Take a deep breath, and see how it works out.

German players kept asking for allied nerfs. They got them. Almost all of them.
But it's like chess. Asking for black knights to be nerfed. They get nerfed, but
then so do white knights get nerfed. So ultimately, they shoot themselves in the foot.

ElSlayer : Old Sov Sniper 64x2 = 128. Actually, it wasn't. More like 60+40. Still a 100.
But the thing was, 40 is easier to lose than 82. Esp when you consider AOE. OST sniper
could not be killed by a single mortar. And Molotov takes awhile to kill. Rifle Grenade
would kill both snipers instantly.
I agree. I, too, prefer 1x 82HP model with improved stealth + SVT40 semi auto +50% rate of fire.

Dullahan : I disagree that this kills soviet sniper play. On the contrary, actually.
4x men squads will feel semi auto high accuracy fire much worse than to an innacurate
bolt action rifle. Plus now, sov sniper can't wipe from rifle grenade/turbomortars.
: PS: British sniper rate of fire also went +50%

And I agree, generalized homogeniasation kills flavor, and dumbifies the game.
But it does improve balance, once everyone has same thing. Notice Germans are also
asking for improved Grenadier squad size. Let's see what Germans have to pay in return :)

Cultist_kun
blvckdream : I fully understand the impact that the old
Bolt action 1x gun vs 4 men squads
Semi Action 1x gun vs 6 men squads
to
Semi Action 1x gun vs 4 men squads is going to have.
Germans complained about sov sniper 'durability'...
You can't have it both ways. Prepare for screaming once they catch on.

ZombiFrancis : On giving sov sniper a PTRSD
- Irrelevant. British Bolt Action PTRSD also buffed to Semi auto PTRSD. Same ROF as Wehr now.

thedarkarmadillo : On SOV sniper being a weaker wehr sniper.
- You have to look at the bigger picture. I for one see it as a massive sniper buff.
I always found sov sniper ROF to be horrible. It's like a +50% bonus to sniper output.
And, seriously, if you were tanking with your sniper, something is wrong with you.

It now survives better, sneaks better, and dishes out a lot more damage.
Having 1 model that cost 135 manpower (not 90 like some people said) that died
to a sneeze, and entire squad being wiped to first AOE was much much worse.

Plus he can relocate much easier now (2 sec camo out of cover) Giggity (Yes ost is 3 sec)


20 Apr 2018, 14:52 PM
#40
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2118 | Subs: 1



You are correct, and wrong. Look at the big picture.

- Sniper 2 man : With bolt action rifle. Really hard to vet.
- Changed 1 Sniper 1 man : With Semi auto Rifle. Easier to vet.
- It is easier to stealth. Than 2 man.
- It keeps stealth when moving from cover to cover 2 sec instead of 3 sec (Like wehr)
- It's health went from 45-60 to 82. (Like wehr)
- Wehr rate of fire changed from ? to 1.5 (british sniper also changed to 1.5)
- brit sniper had heavy AT sniper rifle. Buffed to semi auto from bolt action (!!!)
- Penal anti vehicle satchel nerfed (5 vs 10 range)
- Penal anti tank rifle nerfed (on bounce?)
- Guards nerfed
- 222 Finally got 1.5x on it's MG
- 222 Armor buffed (doubled!)

- Snipers now shoot 100% in garrison now (Germans loooove garrison)
(So do brits)
- Mortars weaker vs out of garrison (helps sniper) and buffed vs garrison (wehr nerf)
- Turbomortars nerfed (wehr nerf)

- Kubel lost it's anti sniper. Pz2, Puma gained.
- UC lost it's anti sniper. Now AEC3.

Old Sov Sniper reinforce cost was ~ 135 for it's useless model. Leaving only a bolt rifle
sniper with low ROF and low health. If you ask me, this is ultimately : German getting what
they asked for, but having to pay something in return, making it, ultimately, a level exchange.

Germans said 222 needed buff. They got it. Penal/Guard AT nerf, they got it. SOV Sniper 2 man
needed to be 1 man, they got it.

But they had to pay dearly in return.

Take a deep breath, and see how it works out.
Ultimately, I think 2x SOV 1x man sniper combo will decimate way more now that they have
semi auto rifles rather than slow aim bolt action rifles with low accuracy. (esp with the
100% vs garrisoned).

What I want now, is for the MG bunker (and american Fighting position) MG to be snipeable.
Actually, even the Flexible MG/Tank commanders to be snipeable. They could be specifically
killed in COH1, so...

Seeing top hatch guys atop of tanks be indestructible drives me nuts :)

Yes, SOV sniper is now a - very - slightly worse than Wehr sniper clone.
This actually works to our advantage, when all is taken into account.

Take a deep breath, and see how it works out.

German players kept asking for allied nerfs. They got them. Almost all of them.
But it's like chess. Asking for black knights to be nerfed. They get nerfed, but
then so do white knights get nerfed. So ultimately, they shoot themselves in the foot.

ElSlayer : Old Sov Sniper 64x2 = 128. Actually, it wasn't. More like 60+40. Still a 100.
But the thing was, 40 is easier to lose than 82. Esp when you consider AOE. OST sniper
could not be killed by a single mortar. And Molotov takes awhile to kill. Rifle Grenade
would kill both snipers instantly.
I agree. I, too, prefer 1x 82HP model with improved stealth + SVT40 semi auto +50% rate of fire.

Dullahan : I disagree that this kills soviet sniper play. On the contrary, actually.
4x men squads will feel semi auto high accuracy fire much worse than to an innacurate
bolt action rifle. Plus now, sov sniper can't wipe from rifle grenade/turbomortars.
: PS: British sniper rate of fire also went +50%

And I agree, generalized homogeniasation kills flavor, and dumbifies the game.
But it does improve balance, once everyone has same thing. Notice Germans are also
asking for improved Grenadier squad size. Let's see what Germans have to pay in return :)

Cultist_kun
blvckdream : I fully understand the impact that the old
Bolt action 1x gun vs 4 men squads
Semi Action 1x gun vs 6 men squads
to
Semi Action 1x gun vs 4 men squads is going to have.
Germans complained about sov sniper 'durability'...
You can't have it both ways. Prepare for screaming once they catch on.

ZombiFrancis : On giving sov sniper a PTRSD
- Irrelevant. British Bolt Action PTRSD also buffed to Semi auto PTRSD. Same ROF as Wehr now.

thedarkarmadillo : On SOV sniper being a weaker wehr sniper.
- You have to look at the bigger picture. I for one see it as a massive sniper buff.
I always found sov sniper ROF to be horrible. It's like a +50% bonus to sniper output.
And, seriously, if you were tanking with your sniper, something is wrong with you.

It now survives better, sneaks better, and dishes out a lot more damage.
Having 1 model that cost 135 manpower (not 90 like some people said) that died
to a sneeze, and entire squad being wiped to first AOE was much much worse.

Plus he can relocate much easier now (2 sec camo out of cover) Giggity (Yes ost is 3 sec)




Erm...what did I just read? So many things outright wrong I dont even know where to start.

Soviet sniper reinforcment price is 90.

Brit sniper has less ROF than Ost sniper.

Whether or not a sniper has a semi-auto or a boltaction rifle is completly irrelevant. Not sure what you are trying to say with that.

Proposed Soviet sniper has 82 hp. Unlike the previous one which had 128. Why are you saying he didnt?

New Soviet sniper will survive mortar rounds if he is full health but die easier to small arms fire and vehicles etc. Plus he can get countersniped easily. These are massive nerfs. You dont really need high ROF vs Ost Grens.

Vs. OKW the proposed sniper might do a decent job actually. Probably a better one than the current sniper.
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