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Possible map 1v1 removal

24 Mar 2018, 04:27 AM
#21
avatar of konfucius

Posts: 111

What's the difference between Kholodny Ferma winter and summer now? Seems just two reskins of the same map

24 Mar 2018, 05:00 AM
#22
avatar of EtherealDragon

Posts: 1436 | Subs: 1

What's the difference between Kholodny Ferma winter and summer now? Seems just two reskins of the same map



I was just going to say - why not just remove one of the Kholdnys? (Yes it's a very solid map and a classic but do we really need two almost identical versions of it?) Same with Moscow Outskirts in 2s... Or better yet... remove a map and add Einhoven Country back into the rotation! :banana::banana:
24 Mar 2018, 05:30 AM
#23
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3235 | Subs: 1

i wish they added more winter variants to rotation... its nice to break up the visuals from time to time, would be a shame for the winter models to sit and gather dust
24 Mar 2018, 06:15 AM
#24
avatar of DonnieChan

Posts: 1664 | Subs: 1

LOSTGLIDER IN AND SEMOISKY OUT, WOW THIS COMMUNITY IS REALLY DOOMED
24 Mar 2018, 08:37 AM
#25
avatar of zarok47

Posts: 570

LOSTGLIDER IN AND SEMOISKY OUT, WOW THIS COMMUNITY IS REALLY DOOMED


But how can you not love that industructable church, the green cover everywhere, the garrisons overlooking both base exits AND the cut-off, not to mention the lack of 2 strat points?

Lost Veto just breaths balance and fun.
24 Mar 2018, 08:59 AM
#26
avatar of |GB| The Hooligan486
Senior Referee Badge

Posts: 3601 | Subs: 1

What's the difference between Kholodny Ferma winter and summer now? Seems just two reskins of the same map


The cutoff point on the east has different cover positions and there is another thing different, but i forgot it.
24 Mar 2018, 09:22 AM
#27
avatar of Luke_512

Posts: 42

The maps in the poll are all pretty good and I would not like any of them removed. Of course some are better than others, but I think that automatch maps do not have enough variety as of now, which also somewhat breaks ballance discussions.


Having duplicates of maps doesn't add variety mechanically. Sure, you get different visuals and all but summer/winter versions of maps that are almost identical or even worse than the counterpart don't add anything to the table. If there's two copies of a map I don't want to play, that takes up two vetos for me instead of one.

Voted Semoisky summer because of how choke-y and garrison-heavy it is, but it could have also been Road to Kharkov for how narrow and long it is and the disparities between the two sides, especially for the cutoffs.
24 Mar 2018, 10:07 AM
#28
avatar of Sturmpanther
Lead Strategist Badge

Posts: 4846 | Subs: 16

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Mar 2018, 23:03 PMLuciano
Hey guys, i've asked Relic if we could get more vetoes in 1v1 and they said that it is not possible because the amount of vetoes are code attached to the amount of maps. So they told me that there is possibility that they could remove 1 map from the 1v1 map poll so we have a extra veto. I would like you guys to vote and know what map do you think guys would be better to be remove. If its possible tell why.


Welcome in my world Luciano ;)

I had this problem too for the last big patch.
About how much to kick out and or vetosystem etc.


As ae said: 5 maps in 1vs1 in coh1. Hm.
I don't play main focused 1vs1. But in teamgames from 2vs2-4vs4 I like to see different maps. I would get bored to play every single day the same 5 maps tbh.
So i am wondering, if that would not be the case for the main 1vs1 players too.
Don't forget:
Automatch is kind of for fun. Customgame/ Cup is for tryhard. Thats why we have in cups only 5-7 maps in 1vs1 cups, which is fine.

But maybe i am wrong and most of the 1vs1 players don't want to have variety. I just can speak for myself.

24 Mar 2018, 10:32 AM
#29
avatar of skemshead

Posts: 579



Welcome in my world Luciano ;)

I had this problem too for the last big patch.
About how much to kick out and or vetosystem etc.


As ae said: 5 maps in 1vs1 in coh1. Hm.
I don't play main focused 1vs1. But in teamgames from 2vs2-4vs4 I like to see different maps. I would get bored to play every single day the same 5 maps tbh.
So i am wondering, if that would not be the case for the main 1vs1 players too.
Don't forget:
Automatch is kind of for fun. Customgame/ Cup is for tryhard. Thats why we have in cups only 5-7 maps in 1vs1 cups, which is fine.

But maybe i am wrong and most of the 1vs1 players don't want to have variety. I just can speak for myself.



Its amazing how some people who have influence in this game put variety over quality. Guess that explains how we got the shit show that was the last patch.

On topic, if a map has high veto rate then it should be removed. For me personally, I have not played Semosky in years and that will not change with recent patch changes. I will never unveto that map for the sake of variety.
24 Mar 2018, 10:40 AM
#30
avatar of Sturmpanther
Lead Strategist Badge

Posts: 4846 | Subs: 16



Its amazing how some people who have influence in this game put variety over quality. Guess that explains how we got the shit show that was the last patch.

I see so you want the status back before DBP was? So i should tell Relic to put in all removed maps back, right?

On topic, if a map has high veto rate then it should be removed. For me personally, I have not played Semosky in years and that will not change with recent patch changes. I will never unveto that map for the sake of variety.


That is really sad to hear that you not even tried(more then 1 time plaiyng it) the reworked maps. Sorry but that is only sad.

And ofc is quality important. Tho automatchmaking should make fun too. There is a reason why we have in cups way less maps in the mappool.

Look at the matchmaking: When there are way less maps but still vetos. Not everyone like balanced maps, also some maps are in favoured for axis/ allies. have fun to find a game. When allies ban an axis map and axis an allies map and you have less maps :P

Don't forget there is a mappoolrotation in this system. You maybe noticed it already, when you play much and often that you get on some days almost only the same map again and again. And on another day you get this map never.
24 Mar 2018, 11:35 AM
#31
avatar of JohnSmith

Posts: 834

Tbh, I would just prefer a larger map-pool and less vetos to allow a bigger selection of playable maps. Yes, less vetos - I don't like the current system of vetoing maps a faction isn't as strong in.
24 Mar 2018, 11:46 AM
#32
avatar of |GB| The Hooligan486
Senior Referee Badge

Posts: 3601 | Subs: 1


I see so you want the status back before DBP was? So i should tell Relic to put in all removed maps back, right?


That is really sad to hear that you not even tried(more then 1 time plaiyng it) the reworked maps. Sorry but that is only sad.

And ofc is quality important. Tho automatchmaking should make fun too. There is a reason why we have in cups way less maps in the mappool.

Look at the matchmaking: When there are way less maps but still vetos. Not everyone like balanced maps, also some maps are in favoured for axis/ allies. have fun to find a game. When allies ban an axis map and axis an allies map and you have less maps :P

Don't forget there is a mappoolrotation in this system. You maybe noticed it already, when you play much and often that you get on some days almost only the same map again and again. And on another day you get this map never.

With Sturmpanther here, a large amount of our playerbase plays this game for fun. And even though some people might find a map shit and unbalanced, like sittard summer, these maps are sometimes still a lot of fun to play :)
24 Mar 2018, 12:23 PM
#33
avatar of Sturmpanther
Lead Strategist Badge

Posts: 4846 | Subs: 16

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Mar 2018, 23:03 PMLuciano


Also some numbers for you:
Semoski got 28
lost glider 39 last time.
From 312 vote in all

https://www.coh2.org/topic/62699/kick-out-1vs1-maps#here


24 Mar 2018, 12:54 PM
#34
avatar of ferwiner
Donator 11

Posts: 2885



Having duplicates of maps doesn't add variety mechanically. Sure, you get different visuals and all but summer/winter versions of maps that are almost identical or even worse than the counterpart don't add anything to the table. If there's two copies of a map I don't want to play, that takes up two vetos for me instead of one.

Voted Semoisky summer because of how choke-y and garrison-heavy it is, but it could have also been Road to Kharkov for how narrow and long it is and the disparities between the two sides, especially for the cutoffs.


You could argue that kholodny is pretty much identical in both versions. But why semoisky? Thanks to different resource layout and huge patches of ice, the 2 versions of this map play completely different.

Also, I don't remember "disliking" more than 2 maps at the time ever. From todays perspective, I can see that every time I actually vetoed a map was becouse I didn't know how to play on it effectivly with some faction. After you learn the map and use strenghts of it, you can have fun on every map in automatch.

Disclaimer: this doesn't apply to tournaments when close ballance and perfect map design is of utmost importance. That is why tournament usually use a subset of automatch maps. And that is perfectly fine and understandable. It should not mean that the maps that are rarely used in tournaments should be removed from automatch though.
24 Mar 2018, 14:06 PM
#35
avatar of Theodosios
Admin Red  Badge
Patrion 310

Posts: 1503 | Subs: 6

Both Semoiskiys, Westwall, Road to Kharkov (I will never forget this most EPIC northern cutoff of all times), Minsk Pocket and Angoville (a map in which you can hardly tripple cap your opponent... apart from the fact that it didn't translate at all into CoH2 like Semois) are no brainer removals. I'd rather have a 1v1 map pool as small as the one in CoH1 containing quality maps (like A_E mentioned) instead of having to deal with so much unsalvageable waste. The last patch headed in the correct direction but I think we need to be even more radical before map pool changes won't be considered anymore by Relic.
24 Mar 2018, 15:14 PM
#36
avatar of WhiteFlash
Senior Mapmaker Badge
Benefactor 119

Posts: 1100 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Mar 2018, 00:42 AMAndy_RE
Hey all,

Just a quick heads up. We would have to look at our in-house data before making a decision on actually removing a map. Your votes will point us towards which data to investigate, but we can't guarantee removing one.

Why?

Most of the players here skew toward the top end of the multiplayer pool. We have to look at the data for everyone and confirm this map is unpopular across the board.

Thanks all.


@Relic, for the record you guys have had this kind of data for years. This type of information should be watched very closely and maps should be reevaluated almost monthly to trim the fat off of what should be an excellent map pool by now.

To clarify: by trim fat I mean, Relic mappers should be improving their maps as much as possible and remove maps that cant be considered fun & competitive. If this had been done since the release of COH2 the map pool would need little attention at this point.

This is all from the perspective of ladder maps only of course.

https://www.coh2.org/news/59489/automatch-statistics-map-vetoes-and-win-percentages

Cheers
24 Mar 2018, 15:36 PM
#37
avatar of ZombiFrancis

Posts: 2742 | Subs: 1


I don't play main focused 1vs1. But in teamgames from 2vs2-4vs4 I like to see different maps. I would get bored to play every single day the same 5 maps tbh.


I think this is a testament to the quality and variety of gameplay that CoH2 provides.

Those few automatch CoH1 maps still are fun in CoH1.

I mean, I've been playing on this same goddamned 8x8 board for chess...
24 Mar 2018, 16:36 PM
#38
avatar of vasa1719

Posts: 2636 | Subs: 4

Permanently Banned
Why need remove maps, add vetos.
All players have there different opinion about maps, and listen only few who can only better scream or better ranks is a bad idea.
If you cannot fix problems sides in maps, dont remove it, coz maybe another players like it for this.
Dont need remember how people talks about some maps, oh goys, its so good map, i like it, nice work and after some time when thay undestand what are bad there, begin to complaine about it.
24 Mar 2018, 16:40 PM
#39
avatar of vasa1719

Posts: 2636 | Subs: 4

Permanently Banned
Imo i like semoskie summer, cannot undestand why people so hate it :thinking:.
If you cannot l2p to map, remove them OpieOP. No human, sorry map, no problem (c) Stalin :).
24 Mar 2018, 17:25 PM
#40
avatar of Sturmpanther
Lead Strategist Badge

Posts: 4846 | Subs: 16

Why need remove maps, add vetos.


The amount of vetoes are code attached to the amount of maps.

So there will be no way. We have no CM and do you think that Relic has the manpower atm to change the code/programm of coh2?
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