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Relic close to shutting down - not profitable

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28 Jan 2018, 11:33 AM
#121
avatar of awa59noob
Benefactor 3110

Posts: 152

Hi all,

i think if you work at relic you should have respect for the company to not "openly" badmouth your company. Even more so, if the company is in trouble. The critique is always the same: incompetent management, yada yada yada.
Does anybody really think, that problems get solved by openly shaming your company: "Thanks for making us look even bader in public and in front of SEGA, but we see clearly now and will change everything, because we are all idiots but you, dear employee. Before i forget it, we just raised your salary" - ridiculous.

Outsiders always find confirmed, what they "always knew"- microtransactions not enough e-sport support, not enough patches yada, yada, yada.

Everybody knows, that is not that easy.


Honestly i will buy and support relic as long as they release games. And even IF, they would close the doors, i probably still would play their games the next 15 years, as long as somebody is keeping the servers up. And if relic decides to develop a MOBA, i probably even play a friggin MOBA.

Best Regards

awa59

28 Jan 2018, 11:43 AM
#122
avatar of FichtenMoped
Senior Moderator Badge
Patrion 310

Posts: 4492 | Subs: 3

Hi all,

i think if you work at relic you should have respect for the company to not "openly" badmouth your company. Even more so, if the company is in trouble. The critique is always the same: incompetent management, yada yada yada.
Does anybody really think, that problems get solved by openly shaming your company: "Thanks for making us look even bader in public and in front of SEGA, but we see clearly now and will change everything, because we are all idiots but you, dear employee. Before i forget it, we just raised your salary" - ridiculous.

Outsiders always find confirmed, what they "always knew"- microtransactions not enough e-sport support, not enough patches yada, yada, yada.

Everybody knows, that is not that easy.


Honestly i will buy and support relic as long as they release games. And even IF, they would close the doors, i probably still would play their games the next 15 years, as long as somebody is keeping the servers up. And if relic decides to develop a MOBA, i probably even play a friggin MOBA.

Best Regards

awa59



Good post there!

A few things I view a little different: The thing is, that the guy who posted this just displayed his experiences with working at Relic in a way, which I personally think, isn't even unfair or anything. It's just his personal experiences and in the end I think you should appreciate it as a company.

His Pros and Cons are not that surprising I have read things like this over and over.

His "advice" is another thing which mostly derives from persnal opinion and that is not how he should have handeled things. Other than that I think this topic is creating way too much fuss about a thing that isn't even that serious in what lies beneath the surface in my honest opinion.

At the end it's just an employee who obviously wasn't satisfied with how it worked out for him at Relic and I think that is perfectly fine and it happens at the (presumably) best comapnies
29 Jan 2018, 08:57 AM
#124
avatar of Noun

Posts: 454 | Subs: 9

I have never called anyone an “asshole” in any forum. Ever.

When your game comes out let me know, I’m keen to give it a try.

Good luck. I wish you alll the best and hope you find happiness.
29 Jan 2018, 10:26 AM
#125
avatar of Arashenstein

Posts: 232

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jan 2018, 08:57 AMNoun
I have never called anyone an “asshole” in any forum. Ever.

When your game comes out let me know, I’m keen to give it a try.

Good luck. I wish you alll the best and hope you find happiness.


Stay tuned until early 2019 then
29 Jan 2018, 10:54 AM
#126
avatar of MajorBloodnok
Admin Red  Badge
Patrion 314

Posts: 10579 | Subs: 9

Post #123 reported and invised. Sorry! Interesting, but it got too personal. There is a line between robust argument and hurling rocks.

Moderators might reinstate, if the author curtails some of the comments.
29 Jan 2018, 11:26 AM
#127
avatar of Arashenstein

Posts: 232

Post #123 reported and invised. Sorry! Interesting, but it got too personal. There is a line between robust argument and hurling rocks.

Moderators might reinstate, if the author curtails some of the comments.

Nothing was personal. If anything was personal you could easily cut the last paragraph, I am glad you proved it why this wrecked train is gonna fall of this bridge. "Criticism" acceptation right ;) ?
29 Jan 2018, 11:45 AM
#128
avatar of MajorBloodnok
Admin Red  Badge
Patrion 314

Posts: 10579 | Subs: 9


Nothing was personal. If anything was personal you could easily cut the last paragraph, I am glad you proved it why this wrecked train is gonna fall of this bridge. "Criticism" acceptation right ;) ?


Wrong! :D

I will PM your piece so you can alter it, if you wish.

Moderators are not allowed to rewrite posts - that is site policy. They can fix a broken link, if asked by a poster. That is all.
29 Jan 2018, 11:48 AM
#129
avatar of Arashenstein

Posts: 232



Wrong! :D

I will PM your piece so you can alter it, if you wish.

Moderators are not allowed to rewrite posts - that is site policy. They can fix a broken link, if asked by a poster. That is all.

No problem! I hardly drop by here to know the moderation rules but glad you clarified it. Anyway your site your rules and your posts and your words :) I am just a wanderer!
29 Jan 2018, 18:17 PM
#130
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 5665 | Subs: 2

Take a look back at glorious and super successful titles from C&C games, when did they die? When EA decided to bring stupid new ideas and released C&C4 and that game had absolute nothing to be called RTS or C&C then it is not selling and publisher is closing down the studio.


TBF, West Wood studios now called Petroglyph Games released Grey goo n 8 bit armies...


Does this mean RTS is dead?
No it is not dead, RTS is just not being developed anymore


Isn't that basically the same ?
29 Jan 2018, 20:18 PM
#131
avatar of DonnieChan

Posts: 1606 | Subs: 1

coh is the only RTS i know without clonetrooper animation loops
30 Jan 2018, 01:35 AM
#132
avatar of SturmtigerCobra
Patrion 310

Posts: 515 | Subs: 12

https://www.coh2.org/topic/67481/coh-franchise-art-director-ian-guise-left-relic

After grabbing a cup of coffee together he voluntarily decided he would fit somewhere else better:clap:

Yes pretty comical, but unfortunately not too far from the truth. Admiral Ackbar knows best;

According to some independent researchers and whistleblowers (such as Ramin Shokrizade), if any dev try to openly criticize a studio-wide P2W business model and/or predatory business practices they usually won't last long within that studio (not a good fit/not "yes men"). MS might say no to AoE4 microtransactions but it will definitely return to CoH3 but hopefully pro-consumer this time.

Don't get me wrong CoH2 is still a great game. But the game reputation/brand value was ruined by bad business practices and messed up priorities (Relic roadmap adventures/roller coaster).
What made this even worse, was Relic did not have any decent CM until Kyle.
So Relic leaders (intentional or not) pretty much nuked a potential thriving CoH2+CoH1 community and committed hara-kiri. A great shame really and it's really a miracle the community is not dead yet when you consider the CM mismanagement from Relic's side. I'll get to that in another post (CMs and oldschool Relic).

EA Makes Worst Company In America History, Wins Title For Second Year In A Row!
https://consumerist.com/2013/04/09/ea-makes-worst-company-in-america-history-wins-title-for-second-year-in-a-row/

The Future of F2P: The Force Wars - 2017

by former top Wargaming/Microsoft pro-consumer FTP expert, Ramin Shokrizade
https://www.linkedin.com/in/raminshokrizade/
https://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/RaminShokrizade/20171204/310918/The_Future_of_F2P_The_Force_Wars.php
*SNIP*We live in a very exciting time here in the gaming industry. Big changes are happening that will very much change how we do business, what products we produce, and our relationship with our consumers. I have been chronicling the history of F2P since 2001
*SNIP*
There are quite a lot of developers in these companies that would like to take their companies in different directions, but they currently live in fear in the work place. To “pass” as being a good fit to the current company culture, they have to keep their mouths shut. How do I know this?
Because they tell me.
As the top consumer advocate in the gaming industry since 2001 I actually have a lot of followers in these companies. They share their experiences with me and encourage me to keep writing. Without their support it would be difficult for me to do so. Thus I have become a sort of Glassdoor with legs.

Once Darksiders are in position in a company, they move quickly to secure power. They are remarkably efficient at this. Those that resist are purged rapidly from the organization and the rest fall in line nicely. I recently had a director at one of these companies (not EA) tell me that he would love to have me come give a presentation to his company on the Light Side Technologies available to them, and how they might improve company performance. But, he added, “that would be my last day working here”.

The primary two criteria used to evaluate new hires is (1) technical proficiency and (2) cultural fit. I've already discussed how the cultural fit criteria is scientifically shown to reduce diversity and increase workplace conflict. If you have Darksiders in place then any potential Light Side hire will fail the cultural fit criteria. If you hire both at the same time (this has happened to me twice) then a Force War will be initiated.

The Top F2P Monetization Tricks
by Ramin Shokrizade
https://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/RaminShokrizade/20130626/194933/The_Top_F2P_Monetization_Tricks.php

Consumer Friendly F2P
by Ramin Shokrizade
https://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/RaminShokrizade/20171207/311179/Consumer_Friendly_F2P.php

Why players hate microtransactions - article by the owner of steamspy;
Why are paid games adding micro payments
https://galyonk.in/why-paid-games-are-adding-micro-payments-526f358426c6
*SNIP*
But players hate microtransactions!
No, they don’t.

Players hate bait and switch. Players hate when they’re lied to, when they’re deceived, when the product they’ve paid for is gone and is replaced with something else.


That’s why free-to-play originally got a lot of hate — because the term itself is deceiving. Free-to-play games aren’t 100% free as in a beer, they’re only free to some extent. We just got used to it by now.

BTW, in Russia free-to-play games are not usually called “free”, they’re called “contingently free”/”free with a catch” (“условно бесплатные”).

It’s even worse with “pay-to-pay” conversions, though. Unless it is clearly communicated to the user before he paid for a game, switching the business model on the fly might be viewed as bait and switch tactics.

And just because Valve managed to get away with adding microtransactions to Counter-Strike: Global Offensive after the release, doesn’t mean you will be able too.

I'm sure Relic loot boxes lovers had big plans to take this CoH2/DoW3 progression system to the next level of BS. Loot boxes should be cosmetics only.

The only public guy in Relic that has subtle trying to apologize for this "loot box mess" and a broken progression system is Kyle (partial fix in 2016, War Spoils update). Very few, if any leaders in Relic has spoken publicly against P2W sentiments. Silence is also complicity.

If Relic wants an older audience, then don't treat your consumers like 14 years old teenagers that don't know anything about predatory business practices. Respect goes both ways.
It's not about the money, not for the older audience anyway that can actually afford to invest.
It's about branding and showing respect + trust. It's about knowing your audience.
http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/branding.html
Branding aims to establish a significant and differentiated presence in the market that attracts and retains loyal customers.

Quote from former Sega Europe boss, Jurgen Post;
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2017-05-24-jurgen-post-the-sega-brand-will-come-back-and-start-to-flourish-again
"The games is where the love of the community starts, then secondly for the studio, and thirdly there is the publisher. So at some point, the success of the studios will start to reflect on Sega."

So if Relic doesn't walk the talk. Is Sega either lying or is it Relic? You guys need to figure this out internally and get more consistent.

Personally, when/if CoH3 are announced I expect a public apology from at least one top Relic executive that they made some mistakes with DoW3 and CoH2. And that this time you'll really listen to fans and don't BS them.
The alternative, Relic can start firing more leaders and maybe fans will give you the benefit of the doubt.
I do get the impression some in Relic/Sega are trying, but they are not there yet. This is why I keep highlighting Amplitude as the "joker card" in this "internal conflict" as they hate these predatory business practices. Also, don't forget Atlus leaders which I highlighted in previous posts/videos going back to 2015;


I was the first on this forum in 2015 to highlight the importance of this new direction (sega listening to Atlus leadership).

Amplitude production leader working/visit the Relic studio;
Hey @Amplitude! Thanks for letting us borrow @jbuiss0n. Don't let the poutine fool you -- he's been hard at work, we promise!
10. nov. 2017
https://twitter.com/relicgames/status/928992404702744578

Insiders joke, exploiting "biggest spenders" that drives FTP revenue are called;
"Whale Hunting" ;)


As the community backslash against predatory business practices will likely continue to escalate, shareholders along with pro-consumer regulators demand more transparency from the Publisher.

This is now taking place with EA.
Quote from former top Wargaming/Microsoft pro-consumer FTP expert, Ramin Shokrizade
When EA was forced to turn off microtransactions in SW BF2, they told shareholders that “This change is not expected to have a material impact”. It certainly had a virtual and financial impact. In addition to the massive loss in retail sales, EA stock has bled off over $3B in value in two weeks. If there was any chance of a clean recovery from the situation, there might be some chance of a rebound, but that's just not the reality on the ground.

https://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/RaminShokrizade/20171204/310918/The_Future_of_F2P_The_Force_Wars.php

EA's day of reckoning is here after 'Star Wars' game uproar, $3 billion in stock value wiped out
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/28/eas-day-of-reckoning-is-here-after-star-wars-game-uproar.html

EA damage control teams moving in;
EA tells investors turning off Battlefront 2's microtransactions will not affect earnings
http://www.pcgamer.com/ea-tells-investors-turning-off-battlefront-2s-microtransactions-will-not-affect-earnings/

EA South Park - Get The Fuck Out Of My Building



I really can't emphasize enough how important this is for the future of CoH3 if they don't figure out to make pro-consumer microtransactions profitable enough for Sega. AoE4 might be free of this and rely on big DLC expansions, but this is going to return in CoH3 for sure (if current Relic leaders make it that far).
The Belgium government is taking the lead for EU pro-consumer regulators to investigate EA/Blizzard predatory businesses practices.

Battlefront & Overwatch's Loot Boxes Under Investigation In Belgium - 11/15/17
https://kotaku.com/battlefront-overwatchs-loot-boxes-under-investigation-1820486239

And for interesting RTS story from 2014 we have;
EU to ban free-to-play unless games are actually free
Dungeon Keeper – the EU thinks free-to-play is the work of the devil (Dungeon Keeper "was" a beloved RTS IP that was nuked by EA microtransactions)
http://metro.co.uk/2014/02/28/eu-to-ban-free-to-play-unless-games-are-actually-free-4341156/

Shareholders know from history these type of community backslash can cost a lot of money.
Currently, Sega's Director of Business Analysis (Jean Yves Lapasset) have obviously been assigned to watch this closely. You can follow his newsfeed to the "higher ups" in Sega on;
https://www.linkedin.com/in/jylapasset/

Relic recently gave up on their DoW3 progression system and it’s likely the system was initially designed to make money from DoW3 elites etc..
If so, Relic has predatory business practices that start to fall apart in late 2015/early 2016 (along with CoH2) even before DoW3 launch in 2017. The chicken comes home to roost.
Consider the timings, when Relic/Sega stop making more CoH2 premium commanders late 2015 because Sega is afraid of community P2W backslash (and potential DoW3).

GO4 COH2 ESL TOURNAMENT SERIES - Announced Dec 17, 2015
http://www.companyofheroes.com/blog/2015/12/17/go4-coh2-esl-tournament-series

According to LinkedIn profiles, 2015 was the year Relic started working with MS partnership/making AoE4 pitch and CA partnership with Wargaming (FTP TW Arena). So Relic likely forced to clean up their act a bit with CoH2/DoW3 P2W sentiments and then you also get War spoils partial fix.
I was very involved in the War Spoils closed alpha and carefully analyzed all the good community feedback.
I have a lot of experience with progression and MMO trading from EvE online (one of the most complex MMOs).
For any experience MMO trader/progression researcher, it was obvious the higher ups in Relic was using this for just "good PR/positive press". Relic has had plenty of market opportunities to gather good community feedback from players and independent researcher to make good progression systems + virtual economy for CoH/DoW. But Relic just continues to fail on this except maybe money from UGC. Lessons learned? Don't do this half-assed or the chicken will come home to roost. Either do this right or forget it.

CLOSED ALPHA - CHANGES TO THE WAR SPOILS SYSTEM
http://www.companyofheroes.com/blog/2016/02/18/closed-alpha-changes-to-the-war-spoils-system
This new system is designed to address the following major community concerns:
Duplicates cluttering inventories and having no value
Randomness with the system and lack of transparency on how it works
Frustrations with trying to earn a specific item
Pay-to-Win sentiments

Who knows, maybe some higher-ups in Sega finally had a moment of clarity in 2015/2016;
"Wow, those DoW3 elites/CoH2 commanders are really powerful. I don't think we'll get away with this being premium content (on top of retail price)"

I think as a consumer, some of this microtransactions controversy is a need to know info. It's easy to exploit human vulnerability if the Publisher/studio know what they doing and why. But the publishers can't fool consumers a second time as the current Nexon CEO put it;
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2014-10-06-nexon-we-need-to-focus-on-heart-first-and-money-second
"I had a lot of conversations with executives in the industry who really had only been to Korea or China once, literally, and they said to me things like 'oh yeah I know what free-to-play is, that's that thing where you trick people into playing your game and then you trick them into buying a lot more than they would have spent before.'

"And so what they had was these rocketing up user numbers and then these user numbers crashed to the ground, in individual games and then of course overall in the company. The reason why they crashed to the ground is because the customers aren't stupid after all. You can trick them once but you can't trick them a second time. And fundamentally in a creative business if you're a cynic you get burned."

Something similar can be said about social media, where former Facebook president openly admits they "exploit Human ‘Vulnerability’".

Former Facebook Executive Says Social Media Exploits Human ‘Vulnerability’

“God only knows what it’s doing to our children’s brains,” said Sean Parker, the company’s founding president.
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/facebook-sean-parker-human_us_5a0468d8e4b0f76b05c3d65a
"Sean Parker (born December 3, 1979) is an American who cofounded the file-sharing computer service Napster and served as the first president of the social networking website Facebook."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sean_Parker
31 Jan 2018, 18:52 PM
#133
avatar of MajorBloodnok
Admin Red  Badge
Patrion 314

Posts: 10579 | Subs: 9

...
What made this even worse, was Relic did not have any decent CM until Kyle.

...I'll get to that in another post (CMs and oldschool Relic)....


nonono...please don't! :D

We give a lot of latitude here, for what is in essence a fan site, but naming and shaming individual ex-Devs or current Devs will go too far.


31 Jan 2018, 19:23 PM
#135
avatar of MajorBloodnok
Admin Red  Badge
Patrion 314

Posts: 10579 | Subs: 9

EDIT

Thread unlocked. Saucisson's off topic post invised.

Back to topic. No calling out individuals, Thnx.
aaa
1 Feb 2018, 17:03 PM
#136
avatar of aaa

Posts: 1391

For me problem is that posts on this forum can scare off anyone who is not utterly insane. One who knows that some of those patients can influence changes and drag game down to their level would abstain from playing.
3 Feb 2018, 17:20 PM
#137
avatar of CptOps

Posts: 82 | Subs: 1

Well look on the bright side.Relic do had one really good virtue:They listen to their community.They trying to fix DoW3 and based on Steam chart they are making process(eventhough the game might never be what all the DoW fan expected and might never had new player again)
Darren said DoW3 fail commercially?so that mean?It failed at first or failed at expectation.Right now both dow3and2 are at the same place.
5 Feb 2018, 13:39 PM
#138
avatar of Phoenix101

Posts: 53



Wrong! :D

I will PM your piece so you can alter it, if you wish.

Moderators are not allowed to rewrite posts - that is site policy. They can fix a broken link, if asked by a poster. That is all.


Wuff edited my post last night, where I quoted another forum user's abuse

https://www.coh2.org/topic/67687/nerf-the-okw-halftrack/page/1#post_id653409

Is Wuff in violation of site policy?
5 Feb 2018, 14:23 PM
#139
avatar of Tiger_rawr

Posts: 1

Well, am content with Relic as long as COH2 servers are still running
5 Feb 2018, 14:46 PM
#140
avatar of MajorBloodnok
Admin Red  Badge
Patrion 314

Posts: 10579 | Subs: 9

@ Phoenix 101

You should have sent your post direct by PM to the Director of Moderation, rather than going off topic here.

Back to topic.
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