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BALANCE: OKW Sturmpioneer / Salvage / King Tiger

15 Dec 2017, 00:12 AM
#21
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Dec 2017, 00:10 AMRocket



Man can we give brits a snare at least so 6 min luchs cant drive circles around my at gun why im waiting for dingo to get here because im forced to make to counter luchs but i have to even tho thats the only thing it really does.


now some of these things will change but it has been a long time comming
have you tried , i don't know , building an AEC ? it comes at the same time and has a slow/snare
15 Dec 2017, 00:23 AM
#22
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Dec 2017, 00:10 AMRocket


Okw does get all the good stuff they literally have a non doct option for everything. If not they whined and got it added for example this is why okw has an answer for everything and lacks basicly no non doct tools like all other factions

mg34
pz4 w/ skirts
t0 at gun

great ultra light vehicle that can do all the capping for you or bleed mp
arguably best rocket arty (good bye other teams team weapons rest of the game)
best tank hunter panther
good medium tank
good TD, bad ass when it vets and dissapears with super range
best starting fighting infantry unit
Only one that gets a GREAT heavy tank can be called no matter what
only one that gets free AA
most effecient scaling infantry after all the buffs and incendiary nades plus vehicle snare stg upgrade that counter most things by themselves
best AI light vehicle
good AT light vehicle/light medium hunter
best non doct heavy infantry
now good blob pen HT with super smoke to help escape


this terrible rakaten thing that supposedly the first shot always missed but can camo (great ambusher), move while camoed (great scout plus can move to enemy lines with little risk has retreat), cheap comes at t0


you are exagerating okw quite a bit:
stg is worse than 1 bar , AND WHAT BUFF TO VLOKS I SEE ALL THE VET NERF NO BUFF
rocket art is good in team game then if you stop listening to music when you play you will always know whre it lands
the best starting inf still goes to usf no argument there
free aa where ? (if you mean the tier 4 its now an active aa AND after all it cost 120 + 15 fuel , think of it same as major for usf)
good xxx ,good xxx ,you mean the same as other faction ?
rak is the worse at gun people asked for pak all this time dont make it like it's op
etc (i'm not going to counterargument evrything you said you know you exagerated a bit but you get my point)
15 Dec 2017, 01:34 AM
#23
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 3047

Meh. Sturmpioneers' effectiveness scales down dramatically as the game progresses, and are only useful in very limited combat after the first 5ish minutes due to a variety of other factors besides dps exchange. The fact that they can put their sweeper away doesn't bother me much, as allied engineers get other shiny things in exchange (rear echelons and royal engineers can have zooks/piats as well as sweepers and are cheaper, combat engineers get demos and nondoc flamers).

The larger infantry problem IMO is live version volks, as they are truly overly cost efficient and have a lot of advantages other than raw performance that help them out against the allies. (Penals aside because they're op too) volks require less investment to be good. They are cheaper all around, don't require side techs for grenades and weapon upgrades, and have better garrison denial than all of usf's nondoctrinal mid game combined (hyperbole but almost true). This means that they get a bit of a power spike during the mid game in and of themselves because they'll get weapon upgrades and grenades first usually, and will be able to freely use them as they only paid half for their stgs that double bars cost, which is why double bars/brens are more effective. However, that effectiveness gets offset by the fact that they are basically required in order to trade positively on the lategame against vetted volks chucking fueseless cover denying flamenades every 20 seconds, while still being cheaper. Then you factor in volks' support all game. They have backup from a light vehicle that only costs 210 mp and no fuel, basically making it disposable and spammable, and an engineer unit with good combat and repair performance in the early game, and an (at times inconsistent) at gun to shut out any similar allied light vehicle abuse, which then transitions into luchs and/or puma, and then the real okw powerhouse starts, with all their shiny lategame units. Meanwhile, usf has nothing but riflemen and mortars to start, a crappy engineer unit (in the early game, they make good zook machines later) and an ambulance. They then have to pay for their grenades and slot weapons and their light vehicles are competitive but not much better than okw's. Then lategame rolls around and it's jackson and Scott spam, which can do alright but I'd much harder to play and can get wrecked really easily by bad luck and/or decent axis play, and they don't have anywhere to go from their, except maybe ez8s and Pershing, while the okw player has even more lategame options.
TL, DR: the fact that volks can trade with allied inf efficiently makes them op because okw as a faction gets so much other crap.

Live kt is IMO a bit too ridiculously good at wiping full health, spaced out, 5 man squads in a single hit, but this is being toned down in the patch.

Live version IS's are generally better and more cost efficient than grens except for the small window of time where they don't have brens and grens have their lmgs or g43s. However, grens don't have garbage moving accuracy and they have access to useful, non-sidetech'd grenades (have fun trying to use mills bombs ever) and a snare and are thus more versatile.

That's just my opinion and experience.
you want some proof that axis tanks sucks aganist inf ? fear no more , go look at scatter (moving one too) of the unit and the aoe (and obv. the damage fall off) you will find that they are either on par or less accurate that allied tank , unless you pick anti inf tanks ( like ost wind or brumbar) and thats the point of the axis faction they have specialized tool but weaker generalist role

Pintle 42s. If muh Jackson had those I'd think it was a bit much, and it doesn't even have the armor of axis tanks (I'm referring to the fact that panthers, an at unit, have them).
15 Dec 2017, 02:18 AM
#24
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

I'm bailing out of this thread cause while i think OP put enough effort into it so as to not make it a "shitpost" as we usually have, i think there are several miss facts and i don't agree with the point he is trying to make, specially with the recent changes on DBP.

Modhat on:

@Stuglife and whoever else: there's an edit button, use it. Normal etiquette on any forum to not post 2 consecutive posts. It can happen from time to time but try to not do so as it clutters the thread.
15 Dec 2017, 03:56 AM
#25
avatar of Rocket

Posts: 725



The larger infantry problem IMO is live version volks, as they are truly overly cost efficient and have a lot of advantages other than raw performance that help them out against the allies. (Penals aside because they're op too) volks require less investment to be good. They are cheaper all around, don't require side techs for grenades and weapon upgrades, and have better garrison denial than all of usf's nondoctrinal mid game combined (hyperbole but almost true). This means that they get a bit of a power spike during the mid game in and of themselves because they'll get weapon upgrades and grenades first usually, and will be able to freely use them as they only paid half for their stgs that double bars cost, which is why double bars/brens are more effective. However, that effectiveness gets offset by the fact that they are basically required in order to trade positively on the lategame against vetted volks chucking fueseless cover denying flamenades every 20 seconds, while still being cheaper. Then you factor in volks' support all game. They have backup from a light vehicle that only costs 210 mp and no fuel, basically making it disposable and spammable, and an engineer unit with good combat and repair performance in the early game, and an (at times inconsistent) at gun to shut out any similar allied light vehicle abuse, which then transitions into luchs and/or puma, and then the real okw powerhouse starts, with all their shiny lategame units. Meanwhile, usf has nothing but riflemen and mortars to start, a crappy engineer unit (in the early game, they make good zook machines later) and an ambulance. They then have to pay for their grenades and slot weapons and their light vehicles are competitive but not much better than okw's. Then lategame rolls around and it's jackson and Scott spam, which can do alright but I'd much harder to play and can get wrecked really easily by bad luck and/or decent axis play, and they don't have anywhere to go from their, except maybe ez8s and Pershing, while the okw player has even more lategame options.
TL, DR: the fact that volks can trade with allied inf efficiently makes them op because okw as a faction gets so much other crap.

Live kt is IMO a bit too ridiculously good at wiping full health, spaced out, 5 man squads in a single hit, but this is being toned down in the patch.

Live version IS's are generally better and more cost efficient than grens except for the small window of time where they don't have brens and grens have their lmgs or g43s. However, grens don't have garbage moving accuracy and they have access to useful, non-sidetech'd grenades (have fun trying to use mills bombs ever) and a snare and are thus more versatile.
.


Exactly and hopefully is now fixed (Volks) what also added to it was the super early fwd retreat that is now gone
15 Dec 2017, 12:26 PM
#26
avatar of Spades68

Posts: 14

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Dec 2017, 23:32 PMRocket


I agree so I just ignored it, didn't say anything about upgrades or cover or range or there vanilla vs vanilla so maybe he can further clarify about his test


Tests were done at medium range w/ both squads behind sandbags directionally favorable to the engagement for both sides. It was not extensive, as in, testing no cover/light cover/green cover all at long/medium/short range. That's 9 different scenarios that I would run a minimum of 30-50 times to gain some semblance of a useful statistical analysis. I would very much like to put the time in for this particular test, currently in finals though and linear algebra is kicking my ass (math proofs are so illogical in human terms).
15 Dec 2017, 12:27 PM
#27
avatar of Spades68

Posts: 14

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Dec 2017, 23:26 PMRocket


Now your putting words in his mouth he said nothing about brens, just 4 man is vs 4 man grens. he didn't even mention anything about green cover?


Tests were done with vanilla units, no upgrades to either, as I felt (emotionally) that the biggest advantage one can gain is winning early infantry engagements in the first 3-5 minutes of a match, hence the no upgrades, just barebones infantry.
15 Dec 2017, 12:36 PM
#28
avatar of Spades68

Posts: 14

You even got wrong all the accuracy stats of the all the workers units(and you cherry picked the range too i see)
and btw you cherry pick stats too try again maybe in the official forum someone may fall for it


Stats were taken from http://www.stat.coh2.hu/ I used to use http://www.coh2-stats.com/ but I was told that information was woefully inaccurate. If neither of these websites provide me useful information, then you are correct in your statement that my statistics are incorrect. Its frustrating if its true that no one has accurate information regarding unit statistics. I thought I was being thorough in researching unit values, I guess I actually have to dig into game-code or some sort of modding tool to view useful statistics. If this is the case, it leaves the game incredibly restrictive with a steep learning curve of guessing a unit's usefulness based on use instead of numbers (IE - lowers the player base, since I doubt most people would even take the effort to go as far as I have).

Cherry pick - your right, I addressed that in another reply. I did not test green/yellow/none/negative - long/med/near which would be 12 scenarios each run 30-50 times in order to yield useful statistics. If you're familiar with a study that has actually done this, I would be very grateful. Hell, you could also include the scenarios of units moving towards one-another which would add at-least another 12 scenarios to this study, being a whopping 720 tests (if used 30 tests per scenario) for a single unit vs unit (now calculate all the unit match-ups of default mainline infantry of each faction).
15 Dec 2017, 12:51 PM
#29
avatar of Spades68

Posts: 14

I'm bailing out of this thread cause while i think OP put enough effort into it so as to not make it a "shitpost" as we usually have, i think there are several miss facts and i don't agree with the point he is trying to make, specially with the recent changes on DBP.

Modhat on:

@Stuglife and whoever else: there's an edit button, use it. Normal etiquette on any forum to not post 2 consecutive posts. It can happen from time to time but try to not do so as it clutters the thread.


Well I appreciate not calling it a shit-post. I really did try, clearly some of my efforts were misguided (I blame poor sources and reliance on those sources due to bad community guidance). This post was not to address the DBP, as it is not live. I'm not sure which point you disagree with, but if it was all of them all I can say is I tried to formulate what I thought was a legitimate argument.

At the very least, I am glad this post generated discussion among-st the community, which I will save for later if I choose to continue debating balance.
15 Dec 2017, 13:11 PM
#30
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474



Stats were taken from http://www.stat.coh2.hu/ I used to use http://www.coh2-stats.com/ but I was told that information was woefully inaccurate. If neither of these websites provide me useful information, then you are correct in your statement that my statistics are incorrect. Its frustrating if its true that no one has accurate information regarding unit statistics. I thought I was being thorough in researching unit values, I guess I actually have to dig into game-code or some sort of modding tool to view useful statistics. If this is the case, it leaves the game incredibly restrictive with a steep learning curve of guessing a unit's usefulness based on use instead of numbers (IE - lowers the player base, since I doubt most people would even take the effort to go as far as I have).

Cherry pick - your right, I addressed that in another reply. I did not test green/yellow/none/negative - long/med/near which would be 12 scenarios each run 30-50 times in order to yield useful statistics. If you're familiar with a study that has actually done this, I would be very grateful. Hell, you could also include the scenarios of units moving towards one-another which would add at-least another 12 scenarios to this study, being a whopping 720 tests (if used 30 tests per scenario) for a single unit vs unit (now calculate all the unit match-ups of default mainline infantry of each faction).
here the dps curve done by cruzz the god of the forum https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7gwy65JLbSRMEJ3M2ZPandMMW8/view
here you will find reliable stats for dps , if you want just the stats ( not the dps) coh2.hu is good but don't relay on their dps calculations
15 Dec 2017, 13:13 PM
#31
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474



Stats were taken from http://www.stat.coh2.hu/ I used to use http://www.coh2-stats.com/ but I was told that information was woefully inaccurate. If neither of these websites provide me useful information, then you are correct in your statement that my statistics are incorrect. Its frustrating if its true that no one has accurate information regarding unit statistics. I thought I was being thorough in researching unit values, I guess I actually have to dig into game-code or some sort of modding tool to view useful statistics. If this is the case, it leaves the game incredibly restrictive with a steep learning curve of guessing a unit's usefulness based on use instead of numbers (IE - lowers the player base, since I doubt most people would even take the effort to go as far as I have).

Cherry pick - your right, I addressed that in another reply. I did not test green/yellow/none/negative - long/med/near which would be 12 scenarios each run 30-50 times in order to yield useful statistics. If you're familiar with a study that has actually done this, I would be very grateful. Hell, you could also include the scenarios of units moving towards one-another which would add at-least another 12 scenarios to this study, being a whopping 720 tests (if used 30 tests per scenario) for a single unit vs unit (now calculate all the unit match-ups of default mainline infantry of each faction).
IS are supposed to lose out of cover they win in cover thtanks to the bonus they get
and here is the "op" elite okw doctrinal squad "winning" vs all allied inf https://www.twitch.tv/videos/208969206
15 Dec 2017, 13:23 PM
#32
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474



@Stuglife and whoever else: there's an edit button, use it. Normal etiquette on any forum to not post 2 consecutive posts. It can happen from time to time but try to not do so as it clutters the thread.
sorry i just was a bit triggered by the blant lies/missinformation of this wall of text post,every time i re-read it i found more mistakes , if you want i can do 1 big post
15 Dec 2017, 16:04 PM
#33
avatar of ZombiFrancis

Posts: 2742

I guess I actually have to dig into game-code or some sort of modding tool to view useful statistics.


Yep. It's actually not that restrictive though.

Steam tools > coh2 mod tools > Attribute editor

It is the best way to look up stats. If you're going to go through the trouble to create this level of analysis, it's probably best you go through the trouble to see how the sausage us made, so to speak.
15 Dec 2017, 21:51 PM
#34
avatar of Rocket

Posts: 725

have you tried , i don't know , building an AEC ? it comes at the same time and has a slow/snare


Dingo car = aec, point is it useless pretty much other than forced to build it to counter luchs as brits, okw however i feel is not forced to really make any decisions but because they have tools still if they make a wrong one
15 Dec 2017, 22:15 PM
#35
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Dec 2017, 21:51 PMRocket


Dingo car = aec, point is it useless pretty much other than forced to build it to counter luchs as brits, okw however i feel is not forced to really make any decisions but because they have tools still if they make a wrong one
"i fell forced to build at gun when they have tanks" "i fell forced to build art when they have mg" "i fell forced to use granade when they are in cover" :snfPeter::snfPeter::snfDevm::snfDevm:
15 Dec 2017, 23:04 PM
#36
avatar of Rocket

Posts: 725

"i fell forced to build at gun when they have tanks" "i fell forced to build art when they have mg" "i fell forced to use granade when they are in cover" :snfPeter::snfPeter::snfDevm::snfDevm:


If you are okw and build a luchs its never a wrong decision unless your bad with it and micro. If your allies either you scouted there going that way forced to a side tech into captain or aec (LIMITING CRUCIAL OPTIONS) that takes build times twice why luchs is ripping the field giving you the advantage, stuart aec gets here forces luchs away wherewver it roams mean time stuart and dingo just useless shit ai vehicles waiting for the next spot for luchs to show up. So effectively other factions have to play off of what okw does and make actual decisions do i get zooks to counter it do i get grenades that cost fuel for the mgs and setting me behind if i have to get an aec or stuart to fight luchs. I had to make decisions what complicated decisions does okw make? Please tell me. Oh fuck i went lieut and rushed a flak truck you have t0 rakaten and volks that already have what they need cause they “built a truck” and get snares. I lost a.50cal best allied mg because of it. Okw can always make brainless decisions, they can buy time easily with there schewer hq that blocks 1/3 of the map preventing you to harrass their fwd retreat or even points of the map in general(fuel munitions).

One of my favirote okw bitches is about sim city when okw has been doing it for years, double liegs camping behind flak truck, thats okay i should just put up with random FOW wipes all game and team weapon constant harresment, but if you have to put up with annoying mortar pits all game its bullshit and unfair because it can brace but cost pop and cant move.
15 Dec 2017, 23:49 PM
#37
avatar of OuTLaWSTaR
Donator 11

Posts: 452

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Dec 2017, 23:30 PMRocket


The only tank that doesn't do decent infantry dmg is panther? But also is the argubly the best in the game at its role tank hunter...But also is the argubly the best in the game at its role tank hunter...But also is the argubly the best in the game at its role tank hunter...But also is the argubly the best in the game at its role tank hunter...But also is the argubly the best in the game at its role tank hunter...But also is the argubly the best in the game at its role tank hunter.


I'll take a ff with heat seekers for 155 fuel Pat!!!
16 Dec 2017, 00:12 AM
#38
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Dec 2017, 23:04 PMRocket


If you are okw and build a luchs its never a wrong decision unless your bad with it and micro. If your allies either you scouted there going that way forced to a side tech into captain or aec (LIMITING CRUCIAL OPTIONS) that takes build times twice why luchs is ripping the field giving you the advantage, stuart aec gets here forces luchs away wherewver it roams mean time stuart and dingo just useless shit ai vehicles waiting for the next spot for luchs to show up. So effectively other factions have to play off of what okw does and make actual decisions do i get zooks to counter it do i get grenades that cost fuel for the mgs and setting me behind if i have to get an aec or stuart to fight luchs. I had to make decisions what complicated decisions does okw make? Please tell me. Oh fuck i went lieut and rushed a flak truck you have t0 rakaten and volks that already have what they need cause they “built a truck” and get snares. I lost a.50cal best allied mg because of it. Okw can always make brainless decisions, they can buy time easily with there schewer hq that blocks 1/3 of the map preventing you to harrass their fwd retreat or even points of the map in general(fuel munitions).

One of my favirote okw bitches is about sim city when okw has been doing it for years, double liegs camping behind flak truck, thats okay i should just put up with random FOW wipes all game and team weapon constant harresment, but if you have to put up with annoying mortar pits all game its bullshit and unfair because it can brace but cost pop and cant move.
yluch is useless after the first 10 min,or relagate to defend some sneaky inf squad, and stuart and aec are not you know why ? cause the luch is an ai only LT while stuart and aec are generalist with usefull ability (smoke,snare;blind,destroy engine) and btw it now comes later in DBP
17 Dec 2017, 23:12 PM
#39
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 3047

yluch is useless after the first 10 min,or relagate to defend some sneaky inf squad, and stuart and aec are not you know why ? cause the luch is an ai only LT while stuart and aec are generalist with usefull ability (smoke,snare;blind,destroy engine) and btw it now comes later in DBP

lol aec a generalist. It's as generalist as the panther. It's also an uneven comparison, and wrong. Stuart and aec are indeed very useful for their abilities, but keep in mind they are just as squishy and only marginally better vs. tanks. Luchs is still very deadly against infantry and I've had games where I stall for a kt using only luchs, puma, and raks.
18 Dec 2017, 06:07 AM
#40
avatar of Storm Elite

Posts: 246

Don't you dare nerf Sturmpioneer survivability unless Volks actually get proper damage output simultaneously... that's all I've got to say about that.

Right now, OKW infantry power is lopsided blatantly towards Sturmpioneers, but that isn't unbalanced, because Volks are trash. Can't just go nerfing Sturms based on other changes happening to resource costs and such.
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