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7 Nov 2017, 13:59 PM
#441
avatar of TheLaGmAn

Posts: 8

If you manage to kill it with a B4, kudos to you, but its not something normal to do vs a good player, so we can also say that a stuart can kill a jadg, and yes, it can, and who knows, maybe there is a replay somewhere showing it.

The ways to kill it are vast, from a stuart to a an engineer who picked up a ptrss and did the final shot on it, but thats not the point here, the point is the amount of resources you have to put into killing it and brain to do so.

Vs good players:

- sovjts diving bombs (doc) are really strong to a engine destroyed JT..
First you must engine-destroy it, have vision and have ammo to use it, have that doc and also manage to hit it in the right spot while its moving (Even with eng dmg)

- mark target is really strong
It is, but you still need to hit it to do dmg.

- come with on t34 from side....it turns around to destroy it...and div in with 1-2 Paks + 1-2 TD...it will be killed
It will, but how did you manage to do that? first, you are already talking about coming from the side, so theres no one there? theres only one jadg on the map? there is usually one panther, a rak and thats just the okw player and volks to faust your t34 engine, and thats just one player.
Whoever keepst he jadg in range of the at guns or did not see the flank happening, thats just says a lot.

- div in with something and activte for mother russia with penals + satchel charges...kill
Good, but, how many satchels you need? because, you know, the first one wont even do eng damage, how many penals do you have? Also, there are no mgs or anything to stuck you? And if you manage to kill it, while you throw the satchel to an apparently non-moving jadg, how much mp will you waste doing so?

- use B4 from sovjet and kill it with one lucky shot
Lucky shot, if we are talking about lucky tactics we can just hope for his game to crash, lucky, we won, he crashed and the IA took over.

- faust it and souuround it with AT and tanks...
Again, a jadg alone? sure, do that, but if he has a jadg alone then its not the players im aiming to.

- use 2 fireflys and hold it 10sec in stuns...while you kill it easily
A valid tactic, but if he keeps range, you are fucked, also the tulips take a while to shot, if he stays in range of your firefly static while he sees a firefly, its on him.

- use artillery cover and div in with tanks...kill it...
and so on...
Doc dependent, but yes, this could work, but still, how much you have to invest?



Im not saying its impossible, far from it, you can kill it, no problem, what im saying is, the investment you have to put it must be rewarded, do not allow the player to call in another jadg, so hes punished by losing it or leaving it alone, because if as you say, you get a lucky shot or lucky tactic and destroy it, and he just insta-calls another one, are we playing on luck? counting to have luck again to destroy it?
7 Nov 2017, 14:09 PM
#442
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 1967

a bofors/ sim city need much more tactics and micro to kill it in early game...its the JT of the early/ mid game...so..
7 Nov 2017, 14:13 PM
#443
avatar of vasa1719

Posts: 2635 | Subs: 4

Permanently Banned
a bofors/ sim city need much more tactics and micro to kill it in early game...its the JT of the early/ mid game...so..


Dont think so.
Try to micro 3-4 tanks with this pathing and 85 range unit ).
7 Nov 2017, 14:43 PM
#444
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 1967

a bofors kill your 222/ luchs faster than you can it drive out of range

a JT give you enough time to react and drive your medium away..

a JT can deal only vs armor...a bofors can deal with all...even vs Aircraft and mortars...

note: a bofors is a nearly cost-free unit while JT cost you 3-4 mediums
7 Nov 2017, 17:34 PM
#445
avatar of Smoky82

Posts: 36

What the Hell, which braindead People wanna Release This Allied Fanboy Patch ????
Nerf Ostheer T4 lol very wisely

7 Nov 2017, 17:49 PM
#446
avatar of vasa1719

Posts: 2635 | Subs: 4

Permanently Banned
a bofors kill your 222/ luchs faster than you can it drive out of range

a JT give you enough time to react and drive your medium away..

a JT can deal only vs armor...a bofors can deal with all...even vs Aircraft and mortars...

note: a bofors is a nearly cost-free unit while JT cost you 3-4 mediums


Smoke bro, flame HT, bait it, ISG, puma outrange, mortar.
Bofors too, give you time to react ).
JT can deal vs HMG and at guns with ability, 85 range ResidentSleeper. JT can kill more infatry then cons OpieOP.
So, up price for bofors, waht the problem, but bofors is not gamebreaking unit liek JT ).

7 Nov 2017, 21:09 PM
#447
avatar of Thunderhun

Posts: 1593



Smoke bro, flame HT, bait it, ISG, puma outrange, mortar.
Bofors too, give you time to react ).
JT can deal vs HMG and at guns with ability, 85 range ResidentSleeper. JT can kill more infatry then cons OpieOP.
So, up price for bofors, waht the problem, but bofors is not gamebreaking unit liek JT ).



Dude, are you retarded or just a beyond mentality allied fanboy?
7 Nov 2017, 22:05 PM
#448
avatar of ClassyDavid

Posts: 424 | Subs: 2

On USF changes I'd say Jackson should be 600 hp or 540. 640 hp is too much for a turreted TD when used by a competent player even with the increased cost and nerfed moving accuracy.

Also, RE receiving smoke grenades seems out of place and is a major nerf to USF infantry play. RE already function well as a engineer unit that can get weapons upgrades and putting smoke grenade on them makes little sense. It's unnecessary change that forces the US player buy more then one RE simply to have mobile smoke as the mortar takes ages to drop smoke at times. USF is meant to have smoke on their mainline infantry to allow major pushes with multiple points of smokes to covering different approaches. Aside from that the USF changes seem fine.
7 Nov 2017, 23:39 PM
#450
avatar of Dangerous-Cloth

Posts: 2066



That the problem of there all nerfs or buufs, i called its double nerf, its to many changes wihtout reason.


Jep.
8 Nov 2017, 00:29 AM
#451
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1182



Dude, are you retarded or just a beyond mentality allied fanboy?

You got him
8 Nov 2017, 01:04 AM
#452
avatar of Outsider_Sidaroth

Posts: 1305 | Subs: 2

On USF changes I'd say Jackson should be 600 hp or 540. 640 hp is too much for a turreted TD when used by a competent player even with the increased cost and nerfed moving accuracy.

Also, RE receiving smoke grenades seems out of place and is a major nerf to USF infantry play. RE already function well as a engineer unit that can get weapons upgrades and putting smoke grenade on them makes little sense. It's unnecessary change that forces the US player buy more then one RE simply to have mobile smoke as the mortar takes ages to drop smoke at times. USF is meant to have smoke on their mainline infantry to allow major pushes with multiple points of smokes to covering different approaches. Aside from that the USF changes seem fine.


It's 640 to prevent the Elefant/JT from killing it two shots, That's why their damage also got nerfed, I also don't like the smoke change one bit... If they wanted people to use the LT more often they could give it a new skill, REs are still a bit overpriced reinforcement cost wise to want more than one.
8 Nov 2017, 01:10 AM
#453
avatar of Intelligence209

Posts: 1124

Vasa and his followers should be ignored as I’m sure they are. as for that cartoon picture that’s 100% accurate. The community is dumbfounded on the panther nerf. With a half ass buff to make up for it. Yet everyone is wrong except the 3 team members
8 Nov 2017, 06:11 AM
#454
avatar of EffenNewbie

Posts: 1537

There's plenty of evidence within this thread that at least one of the members on the mod team that is driving the direction of "balance" has very little knowledge of how things currently work in CoH2 in terms of actual gameplay. This patch pretty much pushes the game to an unrecoverable state if it is released as is. With this patch (and any future patches released by the same team) the game will never be competitive, and it's chances of actually being enjoyable to play for each faction are practically zero. It'd be great if the vocal minority could just for a second think of how fun it's going to be to sit in the lobby, searching for a game at 100% allies, and voice some concern on the direction of this game - at least if any of you want any more longevity from CoH2.


So how many 2v2+ games have you played as USF in the current patch? Ya, didn't think so. The vocal majority got their wish last patch with almost every USF nerf that they ever wanted. This from the same balance team that you're now accusing of being biased towards Allies.

As for all your other conclusions, they're all comically bad. The current patch had really low Allied search rates for awhile. Long term, it didn't change the average number of players or the "longevity" that you talk about.
8 Nov 2017, 09:21 AM
#455
avatar of vasa1719

Posts: 2635 | Subs: 4

Permanently Banned
Vasa and his followers should be ignored as I’m sure they are. as for that cartoon picture that’s 100% accurate. The community is dumbfounded on the panther nerf. With a half ass buff to make up for it. Yet everyone is wrong except the 3 team members


Why you dont agree with me ? I dont play with ostheer ? or i am bad player ? or its just that i dont agree with axis fanboys ? Pluralism maybe, i hear that word come from West.
What community, half of them play only with axis, in another side me and another guys play with all factions. And if you read right, you see that i write, so many changes are bad, for one reason, its need make step by step (in past patch we see, how manye nerfs and another side buffs make units bad). As for me, i think main problem are with pop cap.
From last few games in 2v2, 2 ostheer players have 4 panthers. In another 1 player have 2 and its outplayed my 2 tanks and 1 su85, forget to add + ele.
8 Nov 2017, 10:52 AM
#456
avatar of Sturmpanther
Lead Strategist Badge

Posts: 5055 | Subs: 19

8 Nov 2017, 10:57 AM
#457
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 2841 | Subs: 1

Vasa and his followers should be ignored as I’m sure they are. as for that cartoon picture that’s 100% accurate. The community is dumbfounded on the panther nerf. With a half ass buff to make up for it. Yet everyone is wrong except the 3 team members


Vasa probably play better than you Ostheer and OKW so I don't really understand your point.
8 Nov 2017, 13:10 PM
#458
avatar of Mr.Smith

Posts: 2636 | Subs: 18

On USF changes I'd say Jackson should be 600 hp or 540. 640 hp is too much for a turreted TD when used by a competent player even with the increased cost and nerfed moving accuracy.


The primary faction the new Jackson overperforms against in DBP is OST. Changing Jackson HP to anything other than a full revert will probably make things even worse than they were before.

In the best case, this won't change anything vs OST (stug and Panther will both require 4 shots each to kill the Jackson).

In the worst case, Jackson will continue getting 1-shot by sturmtigers, or 2-shot by HEAT shells, or 2-shot by JT/Elefant. This will make Jackson even worse in those late-game situations than before, since it now costs more than before.

HP has to stay either at 480 or 640, and something else has to give. e.g., we could drive damage down to 160, but increase penetration by 25% to compensate; that way Stug counterplay remains a possibility, and Jackson can perform its late-game role properly.


Also, RE receiving smoke grenades seems out of place and is a major nerf to USF infantry play. RE already function well as a engineer unit that can get weapons upgrades and putting smoke grenade on them makes little sense. It's unnecessary change that forces the US player buy more then one RE simply to have mobile smoke as the mortar takes ages to drop smoke at times. USF is meant to have smoke on their mainline infantry to allow major pushes with multiple points of smokes to covering different approaches. Aside from that the USF changes seem fine.


The reasons for moving smoke from RE to Riflemen are multiple:
- Giving smoke to RE gives them a combat role, where they lacked any before
- Removing smoke from Riflemen, makes them less of an 1-unit army that puts elite infantry into shame, but still allows them to perform well for cost
- This increases the added value of USF Elite Infantry, which were massively overshadowed by Riflemen; rather than being the non-meta option you go for to surprise people, those doctrines now actually become more competitive to non-elite infantry doctrines
- It allows RE to better synergise with USF Elite Infantry
- It prevents lategame USF play from degrading into Jacksons & Riflemen
- It turns USF army synergy from Riflemen-centric to Infantry-centric
- It allows USF late-game to transition to lower-upkeep Rear Echelons, without abandoning their smoke
- Incentivising players to build tanks other than Jacksons (since both M4 and M8 have access to smoke)

Finally, Riflemen smoke is massively powerful vs OST, where USF does OK against, and almost useless vs OKW where USF gets their ass handed back to them in spades.

To compensate for early lack of Smoke, the USF mortar is now the best smoke dispenser platform in the game. Try it out, and let us know how the faction feels.

If the changes work, without getting USF MG-pinned in the early game, it will be a healthier state of balance with more synergy involved.
8 Nov 2017, 13:30 PM
#459
avatar of TheLaGmAn

Posts: 8



The primary faction the new Jackson overperforms against in DBP is OST. Changing Jackson HP to anything other than a full revert will probably make things even worse than they were before.

In the best case, this won't change anything vs OST (stug and Panther will both require 4 shots each to kill the Jackson).

In the worst case, Jackson will continue getting 1-shot by sturmtigers, or 2-shot by HEAT shells, or 2-shot by JT/Elefant. This will make Jackson even worse in those late-game situations than before, since it now costs more than before.

HP has to stay either at 480 or 640, and something else has to give. e.g., we could drive damage down to 160, but increase penetration by 25% to compensate; that way Stug counterplay remains a possibility, and Jackson can perform its late-game role properly.



The reasons for moving smoke from RE to Riflemen are multiple:
- Giving smoke to RE gives them a combat role, where they lacked any before
- Removing smoke from Riflemen, makes them less of an 1-unit army that puts elite infantry into shame, but still allows them to perform well for cost
- This increases the added value of USF Elite Infantry, which were massively overshadowed by Riflemen; rather than being the non-meta option you go for to surprise people, those doctrines now actually become more competitive to non-elite infantry doctrines
- It allows RE to better synergise with USF Elite Infantry
- It prevents lategame USF play from degrading into Jacksons & Riflemen
- It turns USF army synergy from Riflemen-centric to Infantry-centric
- It allows USF late-game to transition to lower-upkeep Rear Echelons, without abandoning their smoke

Finally, Riflemen smoke is massively powerful vs OST, where USF does OK against, and almost useless vs OKW where USF gets their ass handed back to them in spades.

To compensate for early lack of Smoke, the USF mortar is now the best smoke dispenser platform in the game. Try it out, and let us know how the faction feels.

If the changes work, without getting USF MG-pinned in the early game, it will be a healthier state of balance with more synergy involved.


No love for limiting jadgtiger to 1 as the tiger ace? You dont think that would help for when you lose everything destroying it and then they call a new one?
8 Nov 2017, 15:09 PM
#460
avatar of ZombiFrancis

Posts: 2742 | Subs: 1



The primary faction the new Jackson overperforms against in DBP is OST. Changing Jackson HP to anything other than a full revert will probably make things even worse than they were before.

In the best case, this won't change anything vs OST (stug and Panther will both require 4 shots each to kill the Jackson).


Tellers? Reigels? Fausts and schrecks? Those also damage Jacksons and are affected by changes to its health.

A 640 health Jackson can eat a teller and a standard round and still survive. That is huge.
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