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russian armor

German Heavy TD's need some adjustements

2 Sep 2017, 09:43 AM
#1
avatar of A table

Posts: 249

(Do keep in mind i am talking about 3v3's and 4v4's.)

No, they(the Elephant and the Jagdtiger) are not OP.


However, i don't think that anyone would(completely) disagree when i say this:


1. They hard counter Ordinary Tank Destroyers. Mass Firefly Jackson or SU-85 will almost never work, unless the axis player is careless.
2. Flanking it late 4v4 game is a futile effort. As their allies naturally have Panthers, which already requires flanking to destroy it. Most charges are suicides. and.............
3. Randoms are uncooperative. They hardly make a well balanced army by their own, like amassing tank destroyers while you already got mass tank destroyers. And they are very reluctant to join the charges even if you ask them. And Even telling them to switch position when hard countered is useless. Most of the time they blame you after you utterly lost your side.
4. Fixed Artillery/Self-Propelled Howtizer may harass them but will never kill them, Rocket Artilleries will just scratch their paint.
5. Mass PIATS/Zooks are countered by just an MG or a Brummbar, despite making attempt to smoke those areas first.
6.Allied Forces itself have the worse AT capability than Axis Forces, this while having filmsier tanks than Axis.


A very simple solution would be to:

- Double the cooldowntimer
- activating the cooldowntimer only after the Elephant/Jagdtiger have been destroyed.


Any similair thoughts? Perhaps better solutions?
2 Sep 2017, 09:47 AM
#2
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474

did you not see the fpb they got nerfed and hard, and you want more ?
2 Sep 2017, 10:23 AM
#3
avatar of Beinhard

Posts: 161

They allready got tweaked in the FPB, and are in a decent place there.

Best way to deal with them now, is to dive them with cheap mediums and mark target or arty cover. Or hit them from the front with 3 x Su-85s or 4 x Su 76s.

But as you said, in random MM its hard to counter them because of no team-coordination.
2 Sep 2017, 13:58 PM
#4
avatar of ZombiFrancis

Posts: 2742

How does one address random teammate coordination through unit stats?

That said, triggering the cooldown for unit death, not call-in, is not a bad idea at all for units that are limited to 1. There's already reason enough to limit them to 1.
2 Sep 2017, 14:53 PM
#6
avatar of Puppetmaster
Patrion 310

Posts: 871

No longer relevant
2 Sep 2017, 16:07 PM
#7
avatar of Butcher

Posts: 1200

What does FBP have to do with it?

It was cancelled and is no longer supported by the developers.

Or did I miss something?
2 Sep 2017, 16:15 PM
#8
avatar of some one

Posts: 934

What makes Ele and Jagd so strong its ONLY FRP of OKW and Shwere Thats it.
2 Sep 2017, 17:22 PM
#9
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 3046

What makes Ele and Jagd so strong its ONLY FRP of OKW and Shwere Thats it.

I actually think this has some merit, as it gives okw players a way easier time holding on while waiting for their JT. So unless you completely whup their armored forces AND amass a critical mass of rocket arty or just completely dominate them before the jt comes despite the advantages that the schwerer and frp give to a defending army the jt is coming if they went breakthrough (which is very very common in teamgames).

Also the fact that it two hits mediums is kind of dumb, especially since shermans can't even fight panthers in teamgames, so usually td spam is the way to go, then jt shows up and invalidates them completely.
2 Sep 2017, 19:22 PM
#10
avatar of A. Soldier

Posts: 3094 | Subs: 2


3. Randoms are uncooperative. They hardly make a well balanced army by their own, like amassing tank destroyers while you already got mass tank destroyers. And they are very reluctant to join the charges even if you ask them. And Even telling them to switch position when hard countered is useless. Most of the time they blame you after you utterly lost your side.


This.

This is why I think that every Army should not have weaknesses that are counted as "asymmetrical balance" and need another Army to compliment them (like for example OKW and Ostheer, UKF and USF) in order for them to achieve their average potential.

A few examples of this:

OKW not having a T0 MG and resource caches like Ostheer, meaning there's a great reliance on Ostheer for early MG support, which is VITAL on chokepoints in big team games, and the Ostheer not making resource caches because of 2 reasons, not wanting to or not being able to, both happen frequently, I've had it myself many times before, IF there is even an Ostheer Army to begin with. I've also been with an entire OKW team a few times and frankly speaking if you didn't huddle up somewhere on the map to make a giant OKW fortress in the middle of the front and have a mobile force defend the flanks you were pretty much done for, no early T0 MG meant that Allied infantry reigned supreme through the entire match and you couldn't stop them even if you spammed Kubels, Sturms and Volks, resource caches meaning that they had far better and more tanks than you in the mid-early game, effectively fucking you over.

And then there's UKF and USF, the UKF having an earlier and arguably better at it's job MG which the USF lacks, weapons at the front (Advanced Assembly) and a mobile weapons carrier from the Special Weapons commander which again the USF lacks but needs really badly and Armor which can take a punch, which again, the USF lacks, badly, but needs, again, badly, very badly in fact. If it wasn't so Relic wouldn't have added the Pershing or M4A3E8 Sherman and there wouldn't be so much discussions about the Jumbo being added to the game or the regular Sherman being able to be upgraded to the 76mm version, or the very rarely mentioned Jackson on the Sherman hull which would give it the same HP and Armor as a Sherman.

The UKF lacks a mobile mortar, resilient and not cover reliant infantry, and faster tanks. All UKF armor apart from the Cromwell and Comet (no the AEC is not Armor) are slow, but again, at least they can take a punch compared to USF Armor. Something which can be remedied with the addition of the M10 Achilles for example which is armed with the same 17 pounder gun of the Sherman Firefly, more mobile, cheaper, faster, but lightly armored and easily destroyed, but can more easily and cheaply keep up with the Cromwell for support if you don't wanna go Anvil for the Comet.

So yeah, I think that Armies should be designed so they're self-sufficient but compliment each other to achieve higher effectiveness, not normal effectiveness.

That's just bad game and faction design if you ask me and only server to shoot the game balance up even further than it already is.
2 Sep 2017, 19:32 PM
#11
avatar of Imagelessbean

Posts: 1585 | Subs: 1

The TD's are a problem in large game modes, and this was partially addressed by the now cancelled patch.

At the moment the best way to deal with these is to use a nice combined arms push. However, these battles are often all or nothing so commit to them in full, don't allow yourself to be half in.
2 Sep 2017, 19:40 PM
#12
avatar of Mr.Flush

Posts: 450

The best way of dealing with them is to stun lock them. Either use ram or tulips.
2 Sep 2017, 22:36 PM
#13
avatar of some one

Posts: 934

The best way of dealing with them is

to move Med truck and Shwere to the base sector
3 Sep 2017, 00:59 AM
#14
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 3046



This.

This is why I think that every Army should not have weaknesses that are counted as "asymmetrical balance" and need another Army to compliment them (like for example OKW and Ostheer, UKF and USF) in order for them to achieve their average potential.

A few examples of this:

OKW not having a T0 MG and resource caches like Ostheer, meaning there's a great reliance on Ostheer for early MG support, which is VITAL on chokepoints in big team games, and the Ostheer not making resource caches because of 2 reasons, not wanting to or not being able to, both happen frequently, I've had it myself many times before, IF there is even an Ostheer Army to begin with. I've also been with an entire OKW team a few times and frankly speaking if you didn't huddle up somewhere on the map to make a giant OKW fortress in the middle of the front and have a mobile force defend the flanks you were pretty much done for, no early T0 MG meant that Allied infantry reigned supreme through the entire match and you couldn't stop them even if you spammed Kubels, Sturms and Volks, resource caches meaning that they had far better and more tanks than you in the mid-early game, effectively fucking you over.

And then there's UKF and USF, the UKF having an earlier and arguably better at it's job MG which the USF lacks, weapons at the front (Advanced Assembly) and a mobile weapons carrier from the Special Weapons commander which again the USF lacks but needs really badly and Armor which can take a punch, which again, the USF lacks, badly, but needs, again, badly, very badly in fact. If it wasn't so Relic wouldn't have added the Pershing or M4A3E8 Sherman and there wouldn't be so much discussions about the Jumbo being added to the game or the regular Sherman being able to be upgraded to the 76mm version, or the very rarely mentioned Jackson on the Sherman hull which would give it the same HP and Armor as a Sherman.

The UKF lacks a mobile mortar, resilient and not cover reliant infantry, and faster tanks. All UKF armor apart from the Cromwell and Comet (no the AEC is not Armor) are slow, but again, at least they can take a punch compared to USF Armor. Something which can be remedied with the addition of the M10 Achilles for example which is armed with the same 17 pounder gun of the Sherman Firefly, more mobile, cheaper, faster, but lightly armored and easily destroyed, but can more easily and cheaply keep up with the Cromwell for support if you don't wanna go Anvil for the Comet.

So yeah, I think that Armies should be designed so they're self-sufficient but compliment each other to achieve higher effectiveness, not normal effectiveness.

That's just bad game and faction design if you ask me and only server to shoot the game balance up even further than it already is.

Ywah lately I've been thinking that this game would have been so much more balanced if every army actually had a complete roster with units that come when you actually need them, so we wouldn't have problems like no early mg for okw (and to some extent, usf), ukf getting roflstomped by double mortar/isg, okw not having caches, usf doctrines having to fill in for rocket arty, tough tanks, units that aren't riflemen in early game, flamers, and mines.
The best way of dealing with them is to stun lock them. Either use ram or tulips.

Meh. Both of those are inferior to flanking and blocking since they both only last like 4 seconds or whatever, definitely not enough for even all of 2 players' tanks to do a lot of damage to the jt/ele, even if they're already behind it.

IMO they're just poorly designed because the counterplay to attempting to counter them is literally just don't be afk. In elaboration, allies have to coordinate multiple people to put out a far-reaching tank offensive while trying to deal with both the jt/ele and supporting troops, but also having to go at maximum speed or else just lose tanks one by one to the heavy TDs, whereas the commander of the Axis TD literally just has to back up, and maybe faust the diving tanks, or even just do nothing as the jt/ele and whatever supporting armor/at units they and/or any of their teammates in the area just goes to town on the diving allied tanks, all on maps that don't facilitate flanking at all.
3 Sep 2017, 10:31 AM
#15
avatar of A table

Posts: 249

For all the people that think i want to make the Elephant/Jagdtiger useless through nerfing its in- game performance: I dont.


All i ask is that the cooldown timer should activate only AFTER the ele/jagd has been destroyed, making succesfull flanks more rewarding than what they are now.


Right now, once i(with my often uncoöperative teammates) finally destroy the jagdtiger or elephant with a succesfull push, often losing a big and expensive chunk of my army along with veterancy, the axis can just call in another one no problem. Sure, one could argue that ''i shouldn't let them gather all those recources for another one'', but what if it was the enemy fuel point that was guarded by the troublesome jagd/ele? Lets not forget the caches placed by Wehr(though i heard that this was solved trough making it more expensive in 3v3's and 4v4's).
3 Sep 2017, 10:31 AM
#16
avatar of A table

Posts: 249


Ywah lately I've been thinking that this game would have been so much more balanced if every army actually had a complete roster with units that come when you actually need them, so we wouldn't have problems like no early mg for okw (and to some extent, usf), ukf getting roflstomped by double mortar/isg, okw not having caches, usf doctrines having to fill in for rocket arty, tough tanks, units that aren't riflemen in early game, flamers, and mines.

Meh. Both of those are inferior to flanking and blocking since they both only last like 4 seconds or whatever, definitely not enough for even all of 2 players' tanks to do a lot of damage to the jt/ele, even if they're already behind it.

IMO they're just poorly designed because the counterplay to attempting to counter them is literally just don't be afk. In elaboration, allies have to coordinate multiple people to put out a far-reaching tank offensive while trying to deal with both the jt/ele and supporting troops, but also having to go at maximum speed or else just lose tanks one by one to the heavy TDs, whereas the commander of the Axis TD literally just has to back up, and maybe faust the diving tanks, or even just do nothing as the jt/ele and whatever supporting armor/at units they and/or any of their teammates in the area just goes to town on the diving allied tanks, all on maps that don't facilitate flanking at all.


Pretty much this aswell.
3 Sep 2017, 11:16 AM
#17
avatar of Highfiveeeee

Posts: 1740

What does FBP have to do with it?

It was cancelled and is no longer supported by the developers.

Or did I miss something?


With this logic, all balance discussions become obsolete.
If you don't talk about FBP, you consider a new mod to fix the TD problem.
But this new mod would also not see development.
3 Sep 2017, 11:44 AM
#18
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3424 | Subs: 1

I had a simpliest idea to implement. Make JT and Elefant impossible to repair (and disable engine damage on them) OR make the reparation cost between 1/3 and 1/2 of their initial price.

So each shot piercing them would actually be relevant. Losing two jackson but failing to destroy a JT leaving it 10% life would be much more balance because the next round the JT would stay at 10% life and force the player to call a new one full price OR repairing it would have cost manpower and fuel to the Axis player.

At the end, axis players would not call them like no-brainer all the time and actually use other doctrines.

Note that this solution can be implemented for the ISU as well once buffed to a relevant status.
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