Login

russian armor

My FBP Suggestions & things that surprise me

11 Aug 2017, 19:17 PM
#21
avatar of Bananenheld

Posts: 1577 | Subs: 2

i dont have anything to say except:
please remember axis is OKW and OH, dont mix that up all the time it hurts my eyes..
11 Aug 2017, 19:48 PM
#22
avatar of Mr.Flush

Posts: 447



I haven't done the numbers, but you're still paying a lot of resources for the Tiger Ace, on top of not being able to call a 2nd one. The resource penalty duration is adjustable, of course!



Technically, the UC is supposed to be the only mobile anti-garrison tool. Thus, the best fit for this unit is an easy-come easy-go unit. That means less manpower cost and less durability, and some fuel cost added. With the Pathing, the unit will already be stronger.

Even in the revamp mod, I don't feel we've figured out the unit properly (it's currently too strong there).



Scope works by adjusting the extreme outliers (usually nerfing, rather than buffing), and knowingly ignoring the obvious commer-ups. Everybody is already queueing with the Elite Armour commander in their loadouts. Is there somebody on this forum that can't see the Sturmtiger meta coming in teamgames after the patch hits (similar to how we got DSHK meta after Maxim nerfs)?



The Luchs costs 60FU, which is fair given that that generalist T-70, with way more utility costs 70FU. With respect to timing, it should come out earlier than the generalist beasts, otherwise why bother? You're never going to build a Luchs at the same time that a T-70 is out.

That's because you need something to kill the T-70, and now you also need to keep the Luchs safe?

The biggest offending things for the Luchs are:
- The near-absence of moving penalties for scatter
- The fact that it never misses vs non-infantry, even when moving

That means you can use your cheap early luchs to kill off all ultra-light vehicles, no sweat, and then chase after retreating infantry.

The biggest offenders for the Luchs rush are:
- Repair speed insanity
- lava nades
- the insane scaling of Volks which comes after the Luchs rush
- Poor AT options for Soviets/UKF (PIATs should get a range increase, and PTRS should get a responsiveness fix)

If you fix those issues, the tier remains an effective shock tier to complement the more conservative MedHQ tier. If MechHQ doesn't offer efficient light vehicles early enough, it just won't get built ever.


The old kubel(not fbp) could fight mgs in yellow cover.
Similarly, the uc carrier allows you to beat ostheer mgs. If you can't push ostheer mgs off the map, your infantry is going to get wrecked by mortars. Uc carrier allows you to go pure offense with ufk in the very beginning of the game. The kubel was a problem because usf don't have at guns or at nades at the start of the game. The kubel performed fine vs soviets and ukf. I would stop nerfing and buffing units and give factions options to deal with strategies. You are creating problems, not fixing them.
11 Aug 2017, 20:01 PM
#23
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 1485 | Subs: 3

Might I add the Soviet mortar still being utter shit?


I have been talking about this for a very long time. The Soviet mortar is full of shit. I have a large collection of screenshots where the mortar in the 20th minute has one kill, and all this time he was on the front line (build at start game) and constantly nurse him. At the same time, the German mortar wipes full 5-6 people squad in auto fire.
11 Aug 2017, 20:06 PM
#24
avatar of |GB| The Hooligan486
Senior Referee Badge

Posts: 3601 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Aug 2017, 18:52 PMAlphrum


rifle lmg beat vet 5 stg volks, wut u on about mate. Though i do think volks needs nerf for the sake of cons, and riflemen then need to be nerfed too for the sake of volks

Im pretty sure they dont, but if i dont forget ill test it and see what happens.
11 Aug 2017, 20:09 PM
#25
avatar of |GB| The Hooligan486
Senior Referee Badge

Posts: 3601 | Subs: 1



The old kubel(not fbp) could fight mgs in yellow cover.
Similarly, the uc carrier allows you to beat ostheer mgs. If you can't push ostheer mgs off the map, your infantry is going to get wrecked by mortars. Uc carrier allows you to go pure offense with ufk in the very beginning of the game. The kubel was a problem because usf don't have at guns or at nades at the start of the game. The kubel performed fine vs soviets and ukf. I would stop nerfing and buffing units and give factions options to deal with strategies. You are creating problems, not fixing them.

Im sorry to hear you think im creating problems, but im not an axis or allies whiner. I dont like choosing the easy way. I want a balanced game and until then ill play the worse factions to see whats wrong with them and the good factions to see what makes them op. I thought and think these are the problems :/
Open to new suggestions and solutions.
11 Aug 2017, 20:32 PM
#26
avatar of Alphrum

Posts: 583



The old kubel(not fbp) could fight mgs in yellow cover.
Similarly, the uc carrier allows you to beat ostheer mgs. If you can't push ostheer mgs off the map, your infantry is going to get wrecked by mortars. Uc carrier allows you to go pure offense with ufk in the very beginning of the game. The kubel was a problem because usf don't have at guns or at nades at the start of the game. The kubel performed fine vs soviets and ukf. I would stop nerfing and buffing units and give factions options to deal with strategies. You are creating problems, not fixing them.


if kubel was a problem for USF, what does that make the clown car for OKW lol
11 Aug 2017, 21:02 PM
#27
avatar of Mr.Flush

Posts: 447


Im sorry to hear you think im creating problems, but im not an axis or allies whiner. I dont like choosing the easy way. I want a balanced game and until then ill play the worse factions to see whats wrong with them and the good factions to see what makes them op. I thought and think these are the problems :/
Open to new suggestions and solutions.


I did not hear you mention nerfing the uc carrier. :)
I don't like the easy way either. That is why I refuse to use emplacements as ukf. There is no micro involved with emplacement or mortars.
I used the current kubel to fight mgs that are out of cover. I think Okw, in FBP, has a weakness to mgs at the start of the game. However, you guys did give okw smoke barrage on leigs. But, I think if someone is going to use spamming tactics, and you know your opponent is going to do this against you, you should have an answer to their strategy. You can be two steps ahead of your opponent and still get wrecked, because you don't have the tools to deal with his strategy. People like to call these checkmate strategies.
11 Aug 2017, 21:44 PM
#28
avatar of Jae For Jett
Senior Strategist Badge

Posts: 924 | Subs: 2



The Luchs costs 60FU, which is fair given that that generalist T-70, with way more utility costs 70FU. With respect to timing, it should come out earlier than the generalist beasts, otherwise why bother? You're never going to build a Luchs at the same time that a T-70 is out.

That's because you need something to kill the T-70, and now you also need to keep the Luchs safe?

The biggest offending things for the Luchs are:
- The near-absence of moving penalties for scatter
- The fact that it never misses vs non-infantry, even when moving

That means you can use your cheap early luchs to kill off all ultra-light vehicles, no sweat, and then chase after retreating infantry.

The biggest offenders for the Luchs rush are:
- Repair speed insanity
- lava nades
- the insane scaling of Volks which comes after the Luchs rush
- Poor AT options for Soviets/UKF (PIATs should get a range increase, and PTRS should get a responsiveness fix)

If you fix those issues, the tier remains an effective shock tier to complement the more conservative MedHQ tier. If MechHQ doesn't offer efficient light vehicles early enough, it just won't get built ever.


(if it hasnt already been pointed out already though, its 125 fuel to get the luchs, not 115, contrary to the hooligans orignal point)

Anyway, this is pretty much my evaluation of the luchs too: If you compare the luchs' cost efficiency and consider its 1v1 potential with other similar vehicles, its own price isnt too far off, and if you moved the timing back, it would be useless since the other light vehicles would just immediately hard counter it; it's effective only because it comes slightly before your opponents light vehicles.

With regards to repair speed, I think sturmpioneers should have the repair rate bonus removed from the minesweeper upgrade (or every other faction should get the bonus too) and maybe nerf sturmpioneer base repair speed (im iffy on base repair speed nerfs though because I consider fast/more efficient repairs to be a part of okw's design/faction).

I'm not sure what you would change about incendiary nades with regards to how it affects luchs rushes, but adding a fuse just seems like a good change in general.

About volks scaling, I definitely think that vet 5 stg volks should lose to vet 3 double bar more consistently.

AT options for other factions i agree with entirely.
11 Aug 2017, 22:55 PM
#29
avatar of Dangerous-Cloth

Posts: 2066



I have been talking about this for a very long time. The Soviet mortar is full of shit. I have a large collection of screenshots where the mortar in the 20th minute has one kill, and all this time he was on the front line (build at start game) and constantly nurse him. At the same time, the German mortar wipes full 5-6 people squad in auto fire.


Exactly, it just sucks.
11 Aug 2017, 23:01 PM
#30
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 2690

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Aug 2017, 20:32 PMAlphrum


if kubel was a problem for USF, what does that make the clown car for OKW lol

Not as much a problem since it costs fuel (so you shouldn't build more than one) and okw has both a t0 cloakable at gun nad a squad with automatic weapons. The latter of which is actually almost more useful than the former IMO since you already start with sturms (so having it doesn't delay a volks squad) and they really just shred clown cars if you can catch it out of position. Not so with anything usf has access to at the beginning of the game. Also, volks are cheaper than rifles so you don't bleed as hard and you don't have to establish a killer map advantage at the beginning of the game like usf does in order to survive for the rest of the game.


I did not hear you mention nerfing the uc carrier. :)
I don't like the easy way either. That is why I refuse to use emplacements as ukf. There is no micro involved with emplacement or mortars.
I used the current kubel to fight mgs that are out of cover. I think Okw, in FBP, has a weakness to mgs at the start of the game. However, you guys did give okw smoke barrage on leigs. But, I think if someone is going to use spamming tactics, and you know your opponent is going to do this against you, you should have an answer to their strategy. You can be two steps ahead of your opponent and still get wrecked, because you don't have the tools to deal with his strategy. People like to call these checkmate strategies.

IMO UC is not comparable to kubel because raks exist, so you can't spam them (if they get 2 UCs, a rak is totally worth it) and ostheer has fausts and vet1 mg42 ap rounds that just absolutely shred UCs in literally like 2 seconds.


Exactly, it just sucks.

I honestly think that all indirect fire (not counting artillery, with no autofire) should be toned down to soviet mortar levels, since they take practically no micro and can decide engagements time and time again, while also performing their intended role (countering static play) very well. IMO you shouldn't be able to nail 3 models of a rifle or tommy squad in one hit just by having an ost mortar or isg, and you shouldn't be able to roflstomp grens and volks without even paying attention to your mortar pit. That being said, soviet mortar sucks.
11 Aug 2017, 23:23 PM
#31
avatar of Alphrum

Posts: 583


Not as much a problem since it costs fuel (so you shouldn't build more than one) and okw has both a t0 cloakable at gun nad a squad with automatic weapons. The latter of which is actually almost more useful than the former IMO since you already start with sturms (so having it doesn't delay a volks squad) and they really just shred clown cars if you can catch it out of position. Not so with anything usf has access to at the beginning of the game. Also, volks are cheaper than rifles so you don't bleed as hard and you don't have to establish a killer map advantage at the beginning of the game like usf does in order to survive for the rest of the game.
.


OKW has far GREATER problem vs clown car then a god damn kubel against USF. As OKW you cannot afford to buy the reketen early game or you'll have a disadvantage in inf engagements (wher you'll already be on the back foot as early game volks are weak) and lack map presence.

I've never seen volks shred a clown car lol what am i reading. Even if you catch out the clown car out of position with 2-3 volks squads, it has the Armour and health to get away easy unlike the kubel (which is why you pay fuel for it). What automatic weapons are you talking about? you need the first truck deployed in order to upgrade to STG's.

When it comes to bleeding, before volks can upgrade and vet up you will be taking more losses then kills then lets say early game riflemen or penals thus, bleeding you alot more then the enemy. Its only when volks hit vet 5 they can start actually standing ther ground but that apparently is not allowed for axis inf
11 Aug 2017, 23:29 PM
#32
avatar of Intelligence209

Posts: 1124

Riflmen/Volks OP due to having so much damage on the move. i dont know how in gods name did they not figure that out yet. put moving accuracy penalty on both units and you removed the moving blobbs at the very least.

riflemen should only be subjected to bars/lmgs, riflemen should not able to pick up zooks, thats what rear echelon are for.. there should be a punishment/reward for killing rear echelon. since USF vehicle crews are able to self heal..

if kubel is OP, then we all know....
Clown-car OP vs OKW/OH
UC OP vs OH/OKW

tho OKW does have a counter sooner, i dont know why its a problem when Kubel does damage to allies is similar to that of UC/M3. infact, M3 eats kubel up, does better damage to retreating units, and effectively kills snipers caught off guard. kubel machine gun is terrible on the move to retreating units..

i would love to see a video of a kubel beating an MG in yellow cover. thats a load of bullshit.



11 Aug 2017, 23:49 PM
#33
avatar of Dangerous-Cloth

Posts: 2066

I have another one:

Penal syndrome. Either go penals or lose the game. You have no other option but to go penals or you will lose straight up every game. Conscripts suck so hard, it can't be made to work vs stg volks.
11 Aug 2017, 23:49 PM
#34
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 2690

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Aug 2017, 23:23 PMAlphrum


OKW has far GREATER problem vs clown car then a god damn kubel against USF. As OKW you cannot afford to buy the reketen early game or you'll have a disadvantage in inf engagements (wher you'll already be on the back foot as early game volks are weak) and lack map presence.

I've never seen volks shred a clown car lol what am i reading. Even if you catch out the clown car out of position with 2-3 volks squads, it has the Armour and health to get away easy unlike the kubel (which is why you pay fuel for it). What automatic weapons are you talking about? you need the first truck deployed in order to upgrade to STG's.

When it comes to bleeding, before volks can upgrade and vet up you will be taking more losses then kills then lets say early game riflemen or penals thus, bleeding you alot more then the enemy. Its only when volks hit vet 5 they can start actually standing ther ground but that apparently is not allowed for axis inf

Don't forget, it often isn't a kubel, it's multiple kubels. Nobody builds more than one scout car if they actually want to win. Also, with the way okw is designed, it's ok to be on the backfoot at the beginning of the game. That's why they get 5 levels of vet and nondoc elite infantry and a nondoc heavy tank and all the other shiny stuff they get past 20 mins.

*Facepalms* read the quote. It says sturms. Remember those guys? The ones you start with? The m3 does have 0.9 more front armor than the kubel, but it also has less rear armor and less than half the acceleration, which means that its a lot slower to escape than the kubel. It does ofc have more firepower since it can have a squad garrisoned. I also have seen kubels reverse straight through 3 squads of rifles and not die (both my kubels and enemy kubels).

I don't think early game volks are as weak as you think. At long range in equal or better cover, they straight up beat rifles, and will win if they try to close without a proper setup or flank, and are notably less to reinforce. On top of that, you have sturms, who will absolutely roflstomp single rifle squads in any circumstance unless you charge through a road at them or keep them at max range, and are also a capable flanker squad in the early game. Then you have the kubel as well, which doesn't bleed at all.

I have another one:

Penal syndrome. Either go penals or lose the game. You have no other option but to go penals or you will lose straight up every game. Conscripts suck so hard, it can't be made to work vs stg volks.

I'm really sad about this one. I like soviets, but personally, I think penals in their current state are boring, as they are a good combat squad (at the very least bordering on overperforming) but don't have any AI upgrades and their only utility is satchel charges. But then there's cons.
12 Aug 2017, 00:19 AM
#35
avatar of Dangerous-Cloth

Posts: 2066



I'm really sad about this one. I like soviets, but personally, I think penals in their current state are boring, as they are a good combat squad (at the very least bordering on overperforming) but don't have any AI upgrades and their only utility is satchel charges. But then there's cons.


Penals are way too good. They shit on everything for the entire game. Only getting beaten by lmg obers. The problem is that you have to absolutely get penals or you lose the game as Soviets. There is nothing you can do but spam penals.

It is so fucking boring for an otherwise fun faction.
12 Aug 2017, 03:44 AM
#36
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 2690



Penals are way too good. They shit on everything for the entire game. Only getting beaten by lmg obers. The problem is that you have to absolutely get penals or you lose the game as Soviets. There is nothing you can do but spam penals.

It is so fucking boring for an otherwise fun faction.

+1

They're even harder to wipe because of their passive (IIRC).

Like you said though soviets are an interesting faction, and I like using them, so much so that I messed around with stalling for guards and using them as mainline inf, which actually worked surprisingly well, except I forgot the build.
12 Aug 2017, 05:46 AM
#37
avatar of |GB| The Hooligan486
Senior Referee Badge

Posts: 3601 | Subs: 1

Can we stop the kubel discussion? Its not op imo
12 Aug 2017, 06:02 AM
#38
avatar of Tanker

Posts: 53 | Subs: 1

gotta admit OKW is OP in live version i and doubt they will less OP in FBP. Volks is too cheap yet scale too well and have great versatility, side tech comes with tier tech, panzerfusilier 6 pop with stupid sight range, Sturmtiger 1 shotting squad left and right, easy micro tanks, kubel early game cheesing, sturmpio rolfstorm everything early game, luchs rushing without proper counter, best stock heavy tank in the game without doctrinal requirement... i can go like this all day.
12 Aug 2017, 08:48 AM
#39
avatar of TickTack

Posts: 373

I love the sturm range. Great that it fires from fog. One change i suggest is to reduce aoe lethality. Less wipe, more spread out damage. Maybe even dot damage
12 Aug 2017, 08:50 AM
#40
avatar of TickTack

Posts: 373

I have another one:

Penal syndrome. Either go penals or lose the game. You have no other option but to go penals or you will lose straight up every game. Conscripts suck so hard, it can't be made to work vs stg volks.

Sorry: rubbish, frankly. 4 con start, map control is good.
1 user is browsing this thread: 1 guest

Ladders Top 10

  • #
    Steam Alias
    W
    L
    %
    Streak
Data provided by Relic Relic Entertainment

Replay highlight

VS
  • Oberkommando West flag N1cko
  • Oberkommando West flag Scotch1
  • Soviets flag Frosty
  • Soviets flag Beatricks Swire
uploaded by Frost

Board Info

185 users are online: 9 members and 176 guests
Sturmpanther, Serrith, WAAAGH2000, Stormjäger, Musti, OrangePest, dasheepeh, SneakEye, TheRestaurant
162 posts in the last 24h
1033 posts in the last week
5507 posts in the last month
Registered members: 68260
Welcome our newest member, ijewucyny
Most online: 918 users on 27 Oct 2019, 01:03 AM