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Morale, a possible solution to blobbing?

nee
6 Jun 2017, 23:29 PM
#21
avatar of nee

Posts: 1216

Won't work. Not because idea is shit, but too complicated for the supposed mass audience Relic wants to sell to.

I mean if anything, CoH3 will have neither suppression nor morale, or even munitions cost, given the way DoW3 turned out ;/
7 Jun 2017, 06:37 AM
#22
avatar of A. Soldier

Posts: 3094 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Jun 2017, 23:29 PMnee
Won't work. Not because idea is shit, but too complicated for the supposed mass audience Relic wants to sell to.

I mean if anything, CoH3 will have neither suppression nor morale, or even munitions cost, given the way DoW3 turned out ;/


Relic will have to innovate if they want to cater to their fan base and remain in business, since the way I see it is that if they pull off another flop such as Dawn of War 3, that might be their last mistake before getting shut down by SEGA.
7 Jun 2017, 06:46 AM
#23
avatar of Basilone

Posts: 1939 | Subs: 2

I posted this a year ago, seems relevant.

People throw this word around a lot with some sort of negative connotation in both games without really understanding how the game is played or how real wars are fought for that matter. You can break blobbing down in to 3 categories.

1) Blobbers that are terrible at the game, usually new players. Cannot multitask at all, get trashed vs anyone decent.

2) People that are actually decent at playing the game, blob because it is the most effective way to play the faction. Includes some vcoh OF players (Xcom for example is good with vanilla factions, blobs with Brits because that is how the faction works). Also includes OKW and USF, has included Ost/Soviets in previous patches (Soviets are still kinda blobby IMO but not nearly as bad as the WFA factions).

3) Tactical blobbing. Factions that are not poorly designed to reward blobbing, but blobbing can still work in the right scenarios. Includes US and WM from vcoh, and Ostheer. Blobbing is not "the way" to play these factions, but you may do it anyway if you catch someone out of position, vs certain strats like Volk spam or FHQ, or to bait someone in to buying artillery only to stop blobbing after they wasted resources.

There is no reason to complain about #1, if you lose to these guys its a l2p issue. If you are constantly butthurt over #2, you probably just don't like the game as much as you pretend to. CptSprice doesn't ruin the game, the game is just badly designed.

I've seen some people in vcoh bitching and moaning about #3 a lot lately, I assume it happens in COH2 also. Its how the game is played, you aren't any better of a COH player because you have some code of honor where you only make a certain number of infantry and keep them a certain distance apart. If you knew when to blob and did it at the correct times, you would win more games. Half the people that complain about it don't even have a consistent definition of a blob. One game you're blobbing because you have 8 infantry units spaced over the entire map, the next game you're blobbing because you ran up behind a MG with 3 squads. The game is a balancing act of spreading out at the right times to capture and hold map, and converging with all your units at the right time to deal a decisive blow. Its a real life tactic, DDay is a great example.

7 Jun 2017, 06:56 AM
#24
avatar of A. Soldier

Posts: 3094 | Subs: 2

I posted this a year ago, seems relevant.




This is sadly not relevant to the given topic.

Nowhere did I bitch or moan about getting my ass handed to me from blobbers.

I am only merely making this suggestions out of spite for the less decent and more casual players of the CoH 2 community, which like I already mentioned, are the majority of said community, like it or not.

If you don't believe me, feel free to go on the Steam forums and see for yourself, I am not making anything up.

But if anything else, please continue to humor me by posting such stuff when it doesn't even have anything to do with me, I love people thinking I'm some sort of noob even when I have more than a thousand hours in game.
7 Jun 2017, 07:55 AM
#25
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3465 | Subs: 1



This is sadly not relevant to the given topic.

Nowhere did I bitch or moan about getting my ass handed to me from blobbers.

I am only merely making this suggestions out of spite for the less decent and more casual players of the CoH 2 community, which like I already mentioned, are the majority of said community, like it or not.

If you don't believe me, feel free to go on the Steam forums and see for yourself, I am not making anything up.

But if anything else, please continue to humor me by posting such stuff when it doesn't even have anything to do with me, I love people thinking I'm some sort of noob even when I have more than a thousand hours in game.


I think the general answer you get is simple: get better. Being casual isn't a excuse. Since you have so much time to spend in this forum, you could also use this time to document yourselve on getting better, ia watching games, lurking the strategic factions forums, asking questions instead of being full of certitude you are right when you are obvioulsy not.
7 Jun 2017, 08:24 AM
#26
avatar of A. Soldier

Posts: 3094 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Jun 2017, 07:55 AMEsxile


I think the general answer you get is simple: get better. Being casual isn't a excuse. Since you have so much time to spend in this forum, you could also use this time to document yourselve on getting better, ia watching games, lurking the strategic factions forums, asking questions instead of being full of certitude you are right when you are obvioulsy not.


And where did I say I was right?

This is a topic about my suggestion to a widely known problem.

But yet you think I'm some noob that made this topic to complain because I can't deal with blobbing.
7 Jun 2017, 08:41 AM
#27
avatar of Basilone

Posts: 1939 | Subs: 2

Not trying to bash you based on skill my point is the term blob is tossed around so much here and in game over half the people that talk about it have like some code of honor where they think the game should be played with nearly 50% support units. As for the actual blobbing theres just so many things with the design in general that promotes blobbing and I don't think a balance tweak or two will change it.
7 Jun 2017, 08:49 AM
#28
avatar of A. Soldier

Posts: 3094 | Subs: 2

Not trying to bash you based on skill my point is the term blob is tossed around so much here and in game over half the people that talk about it have like some code of honor where they think the game should be played with nearly 50% support units. As for the actual blobbing theres just so many things with the design in general that promotes blobbing and I don't think a balance tweak or two will change it.


There are many other discussions on blobbing and how to deal with it.

This is a discussion of an idea, so I don't think it should be turned into a "OMG you're a noob learn how to deal with it" or "Nerf this, buff this and presto, blobbing is rendered less effective".

I want to see what people think of my idea, not what people think of my skill at the game or what they think should be done to circumvent blobbing.

That's not the point of this topic.
Vaz
7 Jun 2017, 09:02 AM
#29
avatar of Vaz

Posts: 1145

When you combine this morale idea with massive soviet casualties, sounds like it would really nerf soviets over anyone else in the game.
7 Jun 2017, 09:08 AM
#30
avatar of A. Soldier

Posts: 3094 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Jun 2017, 09:02 AMVaz
When you combine this morale idea with massive soviet casualties, sounds like it would really nerf soviets over anyone else in the game.


You do have a point, however as I mentioned, numbers would also count for something since you'd be able to more easily overwhelm enemies using that strength, if of course you don't just use human wave tactics but intelligently flank and tactically approach the enemy's position.

Blindly running towards the enemy in the open or even in cover (for extended periods of time) will not work for anybody, not just the Soviets.
7 Jun 2017, 09:14 AM
#31
avatar of Basilone

Posts: 1939 | Subs: 2

Again not calling you a noob just saying a lot of people pretty much refer to anything other than support heavy wide fronts as blobby play. If we are talking 6-12 infantry hugging dicks that's a blob. Blob debuffs isn't the best answer though.
7 Jun 2017, 09:22 AM
#32
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3465 | Subs: 1



And where did I say I was right?

This is a topic about my suggestion to a widely known problem.

But yet you think I'm some noob that made this topic to complain because I can't deal with blobbing.


Well, you're looking for solutions that would reduce blobb effectiveness without a single improvement from your playing.
So you could have your unmanaged HMG42 standing somewhere and denying the area to a biggest force just because mechanisms allow you to do so.
Learning to counter blobb is part of the learning curve of the game. If you believe blobbing is that strong, you're 100% wrong.
7 Jun 2017, 09:34 AM
#33
avatar of A. Soldier

Posts: 3094 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Jun 2017, 09:22 AMEsxile


Well, you're looking for solutions that would reduce blobb effectiveness without a single improvement from your playing.
So you could have your unmanaged HMG42 standing somewhere and denying the area to a biggest force just because mechanisms allow you to do so.
Learning to counter blobb is part of the learning curve of the game. If you believe blobbing is that strong, you're 100% wrong.


No, I do not believe it's strong, I believe it is frustrating to circumvent, that's why I made this topic in the first place.

Of course any half brained monkey could learn how to effectively counter blobs, but again, this is NOT the point of this topic.

Any further comments of yours arguing that anybody who dares to speak their mind against blobbing should just learn to counter them will be ignored because this is again, NOT the point of the topic, if you want to continue with that dementor I suggest you find or make a different topic about it.
7 Jun 2017, 09:58 AM
#34
avatar of Danyek

Posts: 294 | Subs: 1

So you mean there should be a mechanic like in Total War games and Steel Division? It seemed so, reading your post.
7 Jun 2017, 10:01 AM
#35
avatar of A. Soldier

Posts: 3094 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Jun 2017, 09:58 AMDanyek
So you mean there should be a mechanic like in Total War games and Steel Division? It seemed so, reading your post.


I have not played Steel Division for more than 30 minutes because it just went on crashing but now that you mention it, yeah Total War's morale system sounds something similar to the first Dawn of War's morale system and what I'm trying to aim at.

Of course, both of those are larger scale tactical games but I think it could also work in CoH's smaller scale as well if executed correctly, but like I said, I haven't tested it so I can't say it will work 100% like I imagine it would from a practical point of view.

But on paper at least the idea sounds interesting.
7 Jun 2017, 11:03 AM
#36
avatar of AceOfTitanium

Posts: 162

Blobbing has it's own place such as emplacements. The problem is that some factions dont have a supression platform that reaches a minimum standard and thus cant supress the said blob. One way to fix blobs would be to "link" the supression effect of close together squads making one hmg, that is targeting and supressing a squad, supress direcly nearby squads to that said squad.

Imo a moral system doesnt have a place in coh, reason being that what some people are saying would be a good moral system sounds like (to me) the supression system we already have, not to say that moral system fits best a game like steel division because it has a bigger scale of battle while in coh you have a more squad tactical fight over a town or field. The moral system would be best implemented in coh in things such as the ardennes assault campaign where if a company would suffer a lot of losses or would be surrounded by multiple enemy company's would lose some moral, taking some kind of effect on the troops.
7 Jun 2017, 11:37 AM
#37
avatar of A. Soldier

Posts: 3094 | Subs: 2

Blobbing has it's own place such as emplacements. The problem is that some factions dont have a supression platform that reaches a minimum standard and thus cant supress the said blob. One way to fix blobs would be to "link" the supression effect of close together squads making one hmg, that is targeting and supressing a squad, supress direcly nearby squads to that said squad.

Imo a moral system doesnt have a place in coh, reason being that what some people are saying would be a good moral system sounds like (to me) the supression system we already have, not to say that moral system fits best a game like steel division because it has a bigger scale of battle while in coh you have a more squad tactical fight over a town or field. The moral system would be best implemented in coh in things such as the ardennes assault campaign where if a company would suffer a lot of losses or would be surrounded by multiple enemy company's would lose some moral, taking some kind of effect on the troops.


I was thinking about morale being a sort of "addition" to the suppression mechanic in the game actually, since if you look at the history of Relic, the suppression mechanic came up from the first Dawn of War.

So in effect, I'm trying to bring something back, and not actually implement something new, well, it would be new for the CoH series of games, but it would be taken from the core roots of Relic's old game design.
9 Jun 2017, 10:20 AM
#38
avatar of Danyek

Posts: 294 | Subs: 1



I have not played Steel Division for more than 30 minutes because it just went on crashing but now that you mention it, yeah Total War's morale system sounds something similar to the first Dawn of War's morale system and what I'm trying to aim at.

Of course, both of those are larger scale tactical games but I think it could also work in CoH's smaller scale as well if executed correctly, but like I said, I haven't tested it so I can't say it will work 100% like I imagine it would from a practical point of view.

But on paper at least the idea sounds interesting.


So Steel Division has a morale system (as far as I found it out, I'm really a newb there), all units have a bar that fills up (different speed for different actions (under constant HMG fire, small arms fire, surrounded, etc)). If a unit's bar fills up totally, it will become "pinned down" - can't fire, nor move, only retreat" - but if you don't retreat them in time, they'll either become dead, or if an enemy unit comes into close proximity to them, your units will surrender to the enemy.


The bar's statuses are -

Engaged
Worried
Shaken
And the "pinned down" state


You can boost your units morale by moving a commander unit into the given proximity (commander units have a circle showing the range their effect is in work) - it gives a unit +1 veterancy level, therefore improving accuracy, boosting morale, optics, RoF, etc.


I don't know how you would imagine it in CoH2, as it's a really different game from SD44. You are in a need for combined arms, to actually achieve anything :P
9 Jun 2017, 10:58 AM
#39
avatar of A. Soldier

Posts: 3094 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Jun 2017, 10:20 AMDanyek


So Steel Division has a morale system (as far as I found it out, I'm really a newb there), all units have a bar that fills up (different speed for different actions (under constant HMG fire, small arms fire, surrounded, etc)). If a unit's bar fills up totally, it will become "pinned down" - can't fire, nor move, only retreat" - but if you don't retreat them in time, they'll either become dead, or if an enemy unit comes into close proximity to them, your units will surrender to the enemy.


The bar's statuses are -

Engaged
Worried
Shaken
And the "pinned down" state


You can boost your units morale by moving a commander unit into the given proximity (commander units have a circle showing the range their effect is in work) - it gives a unit +1 veterancy level, therefore improving accuracy, boosting morale, optics, RoF, etc.


I don't know how you would imagine it in CoH2, as it's a really different game from SD44. You are in a need for combined arms, to actually achieve anything :P


Yeah, I imagine it could be modified to work on a smaller scale to fit COH2, it's just that nobody has attempted yet.
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