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russian armor

Panthers need adjustment

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15 Apr 2017, 06:55 AM
#61
avatar of RealName

Posts: 276

Wtf? It's a damn 85mm. It can actually penetrate something. It also has more survivability than a 76 because of its improved armor(health?). And thanks to those two things, an 85 can reliably slug it out with other tanks while a 76 has no hope of doing so. The T34/85 is an actual useful medium tank, equivalent to a Cromwell or an Easy Eight. And the 85 does not need to flank to win its tank battles (obviously unless it's vs German heavies, in case which case EVERY Allied tank needs to flank to get any fighting chance whatsoever)

The T-34/76 is way more cost efficient


"cost efficient"? T34/76? Really? It cant pen shit, it cant kill anything unless it goes on a suicide flanking run, and (like the others have said) it actually has worse anti-inf than an 85. Hell the T34/76 is even more useless now because of the T70, formerly a frail infantry-wipe-machine, now turned into a normal light tank. Which means the T70 is now pretty much (an only slightly worse) T34/76 that you can get way earlier (and cheaper).
15 Apr 2017, 08:34 AM
#62
avatar of Butcher

Posts: 1202

...
The point is that you will have more T-34/76s for every T-34/85.
15 Apr 2017, 16:24 PM
#63
avatar of Dyzfunction

Posts: 73

Wtf? It's a damn 85mm. It can actually penetrate something. It also has more survivability than a 76 because of its improved armor(health?). And thanks to those two things, an 85 can reliably slug it out with other tanks while a 76 has no hope of doing so. The T34/85 is an actual useful medium tank, equivalent to a Cromwell or an Easy Eight. And the 85 does not need to flank to win its tank battles (obviously unless it's vs German heavies, in case which case EVERY Allied tank needs to flank to get any fighting chance whatsoever)



"cost efficient"? T34/76? Really? It cant pen shit, it cant kill anything unless it goes on a suicide flanking run, and (like the others have said) it actually has worse anti-inf than an 85. Hell the T34/76 is even more useless now because of the T70, formerly a frail infantry-wipe-machine, now turned into a normal light tank. Which means the T70 is now pretty much (an only slightly worse) T34/76 that you can get way earlier (and cheaper).


I can't tell you how many times I've had 3-6 T34/76's go on one of these "suicide rushes" and take out Tigers, King Tigers, or even a small group of panthers with minimal losses. The other week I lost 2 Panthers (one vet 2, one Vet 1) to only four T34/76's due to me being surprised and the other player's outstanding micro. The sacrificial lamb would lead the attack and get behind my tanks preventing them from backing up with the others went to both sides of the panthers. I didn't even destroy a single one. One was an inch from death and another was severely damaged but both were able to retreat and repair.

I'm sure someone has a replay of this happening. It's happened to me quite a few times with minimal losses to Soviets.

It CAN go wrong. If they bumrush i this fashion in an area where your tanks are plus AT guns behind the tanks they're gonna have a very bad time. Or if the axis player sees it coming soon enough and kites the T34's in reverse.
15 Apr 2017, 19:12 PM
#64
avatar of TickTack

Posts: 577



I can't tell you how many times I've had 3-6 T34/76's go on one of these "suicide rushes" and take out Tigers, King Tigers, or even a small group of panthers with minimal losses. The other week I lost 2 Panthers (one vet 2, one Vet 1) to only four T34/76's due to me being surprised and the other player's outstanding micro. The sacrificial lamb would lead the attack and get behind my tanks preventing them from backing up with the others went to both sides of the panthers. I didn't even destroy a single one. One was an inch from death and another was severely damaged but both were able to retreat and repair.

I'm sure someone has a replay of this happening. It's happened to me quite a few times with minimal losses to Soviets.

It CAN go wrong. If they bumrush i this fashion in an area where your tanks are plus AT guns behind the tanks they're gonna have a very bad time. Or if the axis player sees it coming soon enough and kites the T34's in reverse.

4 T43's killing 2 Panthers is NOT the norm. It is an exceptional edge case that should only go to show the potential boundaries of the balance scenario, not stand as a baseline for comparison.

In other words, don't use the exception to try and prove the rule.
15 Apr 2017, 21:17 PM
#65
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 4142 | Subs: 3


4 T43's killing 2 Panthers is NOT the norm. It is an exceptional edge case that should only go to show the potential boundaries of the balance scenario, not stand as a baseline for comparison.

In other words, don't use the exception to try and prove the rule.


It's' more of a case by case analysis. If the player reacts in time and begins to reverse move the panthers with no momentum loss on obstacles etc, T34/76s will have a real struggle to pen panthers. If they get on the rear though panthers have zero chance.
15 Apr 2017, 21:50 PM
#66
avatar of TickTack

Posts: 577



It's' more of a case by case analysis. If the player reacts in time and begins to reverse move the panthers with no momentum loss on obstacles etc, T34/76s will have a real struggle to pen panthers. If they get on the rear though panthers have zero chance.

True - if panthers are stationary and blocked in by 4 T34's (one in front and one behind of each panther) and they remain stationary, they will probably both be destroyed.

Probably. :p
16 Apr 2017, 03:04 AM
#67
avatar of RealName

Posts: 276



I can't tell you how many times I've had 3-6 T34/76's go on one of these "suicide rushes" and take out Tigers, King Tigers, or even a small group of panthers with minimal losses. The other week I lost 2 Panthers (one vet 2, one Vet 1) to only four T34/76's due to me being surprised and the other player's outstanding micro. The sacrificial lamb would lead the attack and get behind my tanks preventing them from backing up with the others went to both sides of the panthers. I didn't even destroy a single one. One was an inch from death and another was severely damaged but both were able to retreat and repair.


:huh: Yes, that is exactly what I said in my post: T34/76s can only ever get kills in suicidal flanking attacks. Thanks for reinforcing my point i guess?
18 Apr 2017, 11:42 AM
#68
avatar of sinthe

Posts: 414

The only major issue I find while playibg the panther is the comet. All other match ups seem pretty manageable. They get better with vet. Dobt forget to cover your flanks with mines and AT guns.
18 Apr 2017, 12:29 PM
#69
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 236

Can we just implement the Panther II :snfPeter:
18 Apr 2017, 14:25 PM
#70
avatar of spajn
Donator 11

Posts: 926

But the panther is a BAD tank destroyer, it has slow rate of fire and even worse accuracy. You need to stand still to hit anything with the panther but the panther hasnt got the range or selfspotting to be a good stationary tank destroyer and thats why the panther is gargabe. Yes it has good armor and speed but it has no offensive power at all and for its cost its simply not worth it.
19 Apr 2017, 01:58 AM
#71
avatar of Nano

Posts: 212

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Apr 2017, 14:25 PMspajn
But the panther is a BAD tank destroyer, it has slow rate of fire and even worse accuracy. You need to stand still to hit anything with the panther but the panther hasnt got the range or selfspotting to be a good stationary tank destroyer and thats why the panther is gargabe. Yes it has good armor and speed but it has no offensive power at all and for its cost its simply not worth it.


It isn't garbage, but I do agree it isn't fitting its tank destroyer roll very well.
The moving accuracy seems to be a common problem for all German tanks but when you combine it with the Panthers slow reload rate it compounds things.

The panther is just under performing a little bit I think. Hopefully with the pending Comet changes it might not feel so bad.
19 Apr 2017, 05:17 AM
#72
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 3047



It's' more of a case by case analysis. If the player reacts in time and begins to reverse move the panthers with no momentum loss on obstacles etc, T34/76s will have a real struggle to pen panthers. If they get on the rear though panthers have zero chance.

One would think that tends to happen when four tanks get around your rear. I don't use t34/76s enough, but they do feel almost throwaway time at just 80 fuel. I mean, both panthers are more than double the cost of a t34/76, and once you get t4 up you can just start cranking em out like no tomorrow. However, what with the massive abundance of snares (and pathing issues), flanking gets pretty damn micro intensive sometimes and it's a lot easier (whether or not it's better) to fight head on with higher powered more expensive tanks that actually end up vetting.
19 Apr 2017, 05:18 AM
#73
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 3047

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Apr 2017, 01:58 AMNano


It isn't garbage, but I do agree it isn't fitting its tank destroyer roll very well.
The moving accuracy seems to be a common problem for all German tanks but when you combine it with the Panthers slow reload rate it compounds things.

The panther is just under performing a little bit I think. Hopefully with the pending Comet changes it might not feel so bad.

Also it's just hilariously massively overshadowed by the stug.
19 Apr 2017, 15:51 PM
#74
avatar of Dyzfunction

Posts: 73

So what I gather from all of this discussion is:

The panther is a late game high-end tank destroyer with high cost and excellent mobility.

but it sucks at destroying tanks and if it's using it's high mobility it won't hit anything.

I've almost completely given up on Panthers. The Jagdpanzer seems to always be a much better choice or Stugs as Ost.
19 Apr 2017, 23:54 PM
#75
avatar of Nano

Posts: 212

So what I gather from all of this discussion is:

The panther is a late game high-end tank destroyer with high cost and excellent mobility.

but it sucks at destroying tanks and if it's using it's high mobility it won't hit anything.

I've almost completely given up on Panthers. The Jagdpanzer seems to always be a much better choice or Stugs as Ost.


For me it largely depends on the map. If the map provides lots of flanking opportunities than the panther is the right choice, even despite its downfalls. Even if you don't plan to flank with it immediately you can use it as a skirmisher and fast flank the SU85s/Katushas/Caliopes (or what ever) when the opportunity comes up. However if we are talking maps with serious choke points than always prefer to stick with PAKs and or Jagdpanzers/Stugs to cover.

I hope with the coming tone down of the Comet the Panther will feel not so terrible any more though.
21 Apr 2017, 05:33 AM
#76
avatar of PanzerGeneralForever

Posts: 1072

It's funny coming back to this game after 9 months and seeing the same issue and arguments all over again. Brings me back.
21 Apr 2017, 07:26 AM
#77
avatar of Dangerous-Cloth

Posts: 2066

It's funny coming back to this game after 9 months and seeing the same issue and arguments all over again. Brings me back.


It almost resembles politics!
21 Apr 2017, 11:50 AM
#78
avatar of Swift

Posts: 2723 | Subs: 1

Oi! Stay on topic.

:banned:
21 Apr 2017, 12:56 PM
#79
avatar of Highfiveeeee

Posts: 1740

It's funny coming back to this game after 9 months and seeing the same issue and arguments all over again. Brings me back.


Because there was in fact only one patch since you were gone.
10 Aug 2017, 14:09 PM
#80
avatar of YRon²y

Posts: 220

The entire Ostheer faction makes no bloody sense.

Bunch of tanks that either don't damage infantry at all (a StuG with a mounted MG can stand right in front of an infantry unit for half a minute and not take out a single model) or very little, thus needing to be supported by infantry at all times, and...

...bunch of infantry that is drastically less durable than any other faction in the game both on a per-squad and a per-model basis, thus unable to reliably support armor, especially in the mid-late game.

The Panther is just one of the many absurd symptoms of this, alongside the unarmored armored car, the impossible munitions expenses (either upgrade Grenadiers/Pioneers with weapons to have any chance in direct firefights against other factions' basic unupgraded infantry, let alone upgraded, or use grenades/mines, but not both), and the instawipes (now seemingly more or less fixed via the model spacing adjustment).
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