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Non Call-In Churchill: Most underused Brit tank

14 Mar 2017, 10:28 AM
#21
avatar of kitekaze

Posts: 378

The first type of changes are subtle retouching kind of modifications that change little by themselves, but could, potentially form a useful aggregate when you combine them all together:
- Popcap from 18 to 16
- Smoke projector no longer bestows a speed penalty
- Smoke projector smoke also provides yellow cover to temper incoming suppression for models going stray
- Vet1 side-hatch guns no longer suffer from movement penalties (because they can't point forward)

If we wanted to go a bit further, I would change the penetration values of the Churchill:
- Increase hug-range penetration from 130 to 180. Penetration should remain identical for ranges 15+


I would add further modification as below:
- Reduce churchill health by half (1400->700).
- Apply constant modifier of 0.5 damage reduction.

I have not tried this yet, but if the veterancy is truly based on lost health, then this helps churchill to stop being xp feeder.
14 Mar 2017, 10:39 AM
#22
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1



I would add further modification as below:
- Reduce churchill health by half (1400->700).
- Apply constant modifier of 0.5 damage reduction.

I have not tried this yet, but if the veterancy is truly based on lost health, then this helps churchill to stop being xp feeder.

That would make no difference to XP gained since Xp gained is (damage taken)/(total HP). The result would be exactly the same.
14 Mar 2017, 12:11 PM
#23
avatar of Trubbbel

Posts: 721

There is no point in the Churchill when it can be penetrated by anything and spends more time being repaired than fighting.

Until it's armor is buffed and HP nerfed only cheeky people and noobs will be using it.

I used it yesterday. I think it got maybe two shots off and then it was crushed from full health with okw arty ability. RIP little Cromwell.
14 Mar 2017, 13:02 PM
#24
avatar of Mr.Smith

Posts: 2636 | Subs: 17



I would add further modification as below:
- Reduce churchill health by half (1400->700).
- Apply constant modifier of 0.5 damage reduction.

I have not tried this yet, but if the veterancy is truly based on lost health, then this helps churchill to stop being xp feeder.


This modification shouldn't affect veterancy-feed it does to the enemy.

However, it will increase the rate of received healing of the Churchill by 2x. If for some reason sappers & heavy sappers were to lose their repair speed capacity, that would be something to consider.
14 Mar 2017, 13:40 PM
#25
avatar of Outsider_Sidaroth

Posts: 1323 | Subs: 1

Wouldn't the Churchill be more appealing next patch where Hand-held AT will not reward as much veterancy?
14 Mar 2017, 14:26 PM
#26
avatar of Tiger Baron

Posts: 3141 | Subs: 2


I used it yesterday. I think it got maybe two shots off and then it was crushed from full health with okw arty ability. RIP little Cromwell.


Cromwell?
19 Mar 2017, 18:10 PM
#27
avatar of vasa1719

Posts: 2635 | Subs: 4

Permanently Banned
There's no way additional non-bug-related changes can be piggybacked on top of WBP. Especially ones that are out of scope.

Arguably, the reason why nobody goes for Churchills is because:
- Ostheer T3 is the way to go
- Comet is insanely OP and seal-clubs Ostheer T3
- 18-popcap Churchill get denied by 8-popcap Stugs

With respect to WBP, Churchills will benefit from the following bugfixes:
- Grenade ability (their main weapon, arguably) will launch reliably, 100% of the time
- Changes to AoE suppression means that you can actually use smoke projector to cover an infantry advance

IMO, there are two types of changes Churchills could be prone to receive.

The first type of changes are subtle retouching kind of modifications that change little by themselves, but could, potentially form a useful aggregate when you combine them all together:
- Popcap from 18 to 16
- Smoke projector no longer bestows a speed penalty
- Smoke projector smoke also provides yellow cover to temper incoming suppression for models going stray
- Vet1 side-hatch guns no longer suffer from movement penalties (because they can't point forward)

If we wanted to go a bit further, I would change the penetration values of the Churchill:
- Increase hug-range penetration from 130 to 180. Penetration should remain identical for ranges 15+

(the Churchill is almost as slow as the KT, which means all the affected tanks will have more than enough opportunity to keep their distance)

This would ensure that a Churchill cannot be perpetually ignored. You should keep away from the Churchill, which would mean you could use a Churchill as a real meatshield that blocks enemy tanks.



+ 1
19 Mar 2017, 20:21 PM
#28
avatar of Stark

Posts: 626 | Subs: 1



...



+1

You have my vote on it. Hope you will implement it in next patch
27 Mar 2017, 12:02 PM
#29
avatar of notrollo

Posts: 11

build one stug or jagdpanzer and the churchill is useless

OKW can field a command panther before you can even start building a Churchill in 1vs1 most games

Churchill is quite good tank actually, it can solo any other medium tank


Come on hector, even Pumas can deal with the churchill it's so god damn slow.

Now imagine a world where a single SU-76 or AEC can counter the wehr tiger, because the Churchill is comparable in cost/pop cap (and it's getting bullied by single StuG's at the moment).
27 Mar 2017, 12:23 PM
#30
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 4314 | Subs: 7

build one stug or jagdpanzer and the churchill is useless

OKW can field a command panther before you can even start building a Churchill in 1vs1 most games



Come on hector, even Pumas can deal with the churchill it's so god damn slow.

Now imagine a world where a single SU-76 or AEC can counter the wehr tiger, because the Churchill is comparable in cost/pop cap (and it's getting bullied by single StuG's at the moment).



Stuff is assault guntil nothe medium tank. Churchill will counter medium tanksized because they havwere same raneed meaning mediums cannot kite him. And against other tangers you have firefly with tulips (assault guns will hardly dodge tulips)
27 Mar 2017, 12:42 PM
#31
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

Facts:
Churchill
cost 490/160
pop 18
Speed 4
Acceleration 3.5
Deceleration 3.5
rotation 32

Tiger
cost 640/230
pop 19
speed 4.7
Acceleration 1.5
Deceleration 1.8
rotation 24

A Su-76 can bully a Tiger because it can snipe it from range 60 with 60% chance of penetration.
27 Mar 2017, 13:09 PM
#32
avatar of vietnamabc

Posts: 1063

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Mar 2017, 12:42 PMVipper
Facts:
Churchill
cost 490/160
pop 18
Speed 4
Acceleration 3.5
Deceleration 3.5
rotation 32

Tiger
cost 640/230
pop 19
speed 4.7
Acceleration 1.5
Deceleration 1.8
rotation 24

A Su-76 can bully a Tiger because it can snipe it from range 60 with 60% chance of penetration.

Facts: Tiger don't cost tech while Churchill requires the useless Anvil (nobody use it in 1v1). Also Puma penetrates Churchill in nearly everyshot and Churchill's dmg output is less than a Cromwell so no thanks.
27 Mar 2017, 13:44 PM
#33
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

Chance of puma penetrating a Churchill frontally are 67%/42%/33% , hardy every shot.

I do not claim that Churchill is great tank and does not need changes (I have made suggestion how to improve), but some of the arguments used are simply not true (like the penetration of the Puma).
27 Mar 2017, 15:33 PM
#34
avatar of Jackiebrown

Posts: 657

If I recall correctly the chance of penetration on Churchills used to be lower but they reduced its amor because old Churchill used to bounce shots left and right.
27 Mar 2017, 15:57 PM
#35
avatar of Butcher

Posts: 1217

- Ostheer T3 is the way to go
- 18-popcap Churchill get denied by 8-popcap Stugs
This sounds dangerously like you are planning on nerfing the StuG G at some point. In my opinion that is the last crutch Ostheer has, fighting the insane Cromwell and Comet advantage Brits bring for the mid-endgame. StuGs are countered by one AT gun since they have 50 range and have to commit more than the 60 range TDs. Two AT guns will usually finish the StuG before it can escape. That being said: The main issue is not the StuG but - as you mentioned - the Comet overperforming and the design flaw of having only mediocre armor on a heavy tank (which means you will have to repair after every engagement).
27 Mar 2017, 16:51 PM
#36
avatar of LimaOscarMike

Posts: 440

i think anyone ever try replace it main gun with cromwell one yet ?

drive in bleed as much as possible and reverse to rapair within a second with Heavy engineer is great enough. while there is firefly for AT option and let churchil doing it Anti inf role

same way to go with KV1 can be replace with T-34 both main gun and MG the problem for KV1 is it's need to require tier 4
27 Mar 2017, 21:32 PM
#37
avatar of zerocoh

Posts: 930

these heavy tanks works best against OKW, since they rely way more on infantry and have less powerful ATs until late game.


also, is the Early warning from anvil going to work next patch?
28 Mar 2017, 00:29 AM
#38
avatar of ZombiFrancis

Posts: 2742

Most underused Brit tank or most overshadowed Brit tank? :megusta:
28 Mar 2017, 02:49 AM
#39
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 3053

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Mar 2017, 09:39 AMVipper
Imo Churchill should be closer to historical role of an "infantry support heavy tank" and should be used with infantry support.

To achieve this I would suggest 2 changes for start:

1) Move WP smoke from Comet to Churchill and reduce range to 40.
Reasons:
Comet already can easily deal with infantry and ATGs so it does not need the WP smoke. In addition that would allow the Churchill to dislodge hmgs that would pin its supporting infantry.

2) Change the "covering smoke" to actually be useful to infantry (maybe remove the speed penalty or make the speed of vehicle 4 when active).
Reasons:
Instead of vision blocker (that mostly benefit that tank itself)it should enable attack cover bonuses for infantry allowing better synergy. A similar ability is already in game in the commandos "Cover Smoke Grenade". Since this might actually be a bit strong I would start with a smoke that simply act as if the UKF infantry are in cover and they get their firing bonuses.

Imo these changes will allow the unit to be useful when used with supporting infantry.

+1

It'd be nice if it actually bounced something once in a while as well, to solve the stupid xp vending machine issue. Maybe decrease the hp pool to have about the same survivability.
28 Mar 2017, 03:08 AM
#40
avatar of FalseAlarm

Posts: 182

Permanently Banned
Arguably, the reason why nobody goes for Churchills is because:
- Ostheer T3 is the way to go
- 18-popcap Churchill get denied by 8-popcap Stugs

It seems Ostheer is the faction which is giving you the roughest time and unfortunately it is affecting the community team's decision making. I suggest you play some matches as Ostheer and learn their vulnerabilities against the brits.


Most underused Brit tank or most overshadowed Brit tank? :megusta:
Yep, that's the perfect title.B-)
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