Never understood why Penals occupy the spot they do, in my opinion they should be dirt cheap screens with the demo ability and nothing else.
The changes being made to them confuses me even more, why does it make sense to have a penal squad equipped and outfitted with more kit and firepower than a squad of conscripts (your baseline infantry)?
Just for flavor and fun i think it would be neat to add in frontovik squads where penals were and give them the exact same profile (weapons, damage, vet, upgrades) while making the penals squad an extremely cheap and under equipped scout/screen/demo unit that comes in at tier 0.
Thoughts?
Penals and Cons
23 Jan 2017, 21:20 PM
#1
Posts: 114
23 Jan 2017, 21:46 PM
#2
Posts: 493
Just a name of unit. Maybe as a part of overall lelic's feeling about russians 
At least they think so and because of that have banned selling of disc version there.
At least they think so and because of that have banned selling of disc version there.
mastered mode: 4v3
drops > mates > rng > pathfinding > ??? > skill
drops > mates > rng > pathfinding > ??? > skill
23 Jan 2017, 21:49 PM
#3
6 Posts: 328
I know exactly what you mean. But currently penals are the only base unit that Relic could experiment giving PTRS rifles to. Another possible option would be to make guards a base unit, but then they'd have to find alternatives for all the commanders who have guards - so that isn't going to happen.
Personally I'd be more than happy to see the PTRS changes stay. The SU have needed a dedicated AT inf unit since the game came out. And once they have it SU players can finally open up the commander choices A LOT more.
As for keeping cons useful as a result, perhaps they could tweak the health of the penals. Although personally I think cons are still an extremely useful unit, thanks to oorah and AT nades. Which perfectly compliment PTRS penals.
If people complain about it not being historically accurate or illogical you can just point to grenades blowing up houses, or a jeep being able to drive over fences that a huge truck can't, etc, etc, etc.
Personally I'd be more than happy to see the PTRS changes stay. The SU have needed a dedicated AT inf unit since the game came out. And once they have it SU players can finally open up the commander choices A LOT more.
As for keeping cons useful as a result, perhaps they could tweak the health of the penals. Although personally I think cons are still an extremely useful unit, thanks to oorah and AT nades. Which perfectly compliment PTRS penals.
If people complain about it not being historically accurate or illogical you can just point to grenades blowing up houses, or a jeep being able to drive over fences that a huge truck can't, etc, etc, etc.
23 Jan 2017, 21:51 PM
#4
Posts: 2260 | Subs: 1
Never understood why Penals occupy the spot they do, in my opinion they should be dirt cheap screens with the demo ability and nothing else.
The changes being made to them confuses me even more, why does it make sense to have a penal squad equipped and outfitted with more kit and firepower than a squad of conscripts (your baseline infantry)?
Just for flavor and fun i think it would be neat to add in frontovik squads where penals were and give them the exact same profile (weapons, damage, vet, upgrades) while making the penals squad an extremely cheap and under equipped scout/screen/demo unit that comes in at tier 0.
Thoughts?
with the current implementation you can use cons as fire team (mid range) and ppsh penals as assault team (close range) which leads to a very nice dynamic and gameplay
23 Jan 2017, 23:26 PM
#5
Posts: 1605 | Subs: 1
Never understood why Penals occupy the spot they do, in my opinion they should be dirt cheap screens with the demo ability and nothing else.
I understand that it may be breaking your immersion, but that's just placeholder for stats.
The changes being made to them confuses me even more, why does it make sense to have a penal squad equipped and outfitted with more kit and firepower than a squad of conscripts (your baseline infantry)?
Penals were ordered for suicide missions, but they weren't underequipped for that.
Just for flavor and fun i think it would be neat to add in frontovik squads where penals were and give them the exact same profile (weapons, damage, vet, upgrades) while making the penals squad an extremely cheap and under equipped scout/screen/demo unit that comes in at tier 0.
Basically "give Soviets rifleman and non-doc osttruppen".
23 Jan 2017, 23:41 PM
#6
Posts: 525
Sov should have non doc Ppsh for Conscripts and T34-85...
It is stupid to have these locked behind commanders...
It is stupid to have these locked behind commanders...
24 Jan 2017, 04:28 AM
#7
Posts: 114
Just a name of unit. Maybe as a part of overall lelic's feeling about russians
I agree with you 100%, i always found the silly enemy at the gates style Russians off putting.
Thinking about it more the issue i have is more of an immersion problem than a balance one (there is still some balance issues to work out of course).
I have always been curious as to why the marketing team at relic couldn't read a little history and understand that portraying the russians as cartoonish villains would hurt their sales.
The Russians are very proud of their immense contributions and refer to ww2 as "the great patriotic war" maybe showing them a little respect would have resulted in better sales, more streamers and a much larger and healthier online community.
24 Jan 2017, 08:34 AM
#8
Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2
I feel like Cons should be main component of SU army, while T1 and T2 add just "something more" which Cons can't do, like suppresion, indirectfire, scout car, sniper or... utility infatry which would be Penals with some special abilities, useful in battle, but not that much.
For example demo charge could be taken away from enigs and given to Penals - just as as example.
Infantry which you don't need more than 1 squad.
Shame that currently Penals seem more of a mainline infantry than Cons.
For example demo charge could be taken away from enigs and given to Penals - just as as example.
Infantry which you don't need more than 1 squad.
Shame that currently Penals seem more of a mainline infantry than Cons.
24 Jan 2017, 09:55 AM
#9
Posts: 578
Cons are plenty good already.
Just spam 8 of them, get AT nade and use rapid conscription
Just spam 8 of them, get AT nade and use rapid conscription
It's Relic's responsibility.
24 Jan 2017, 10:49 AM
#10
Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1
It is still my opinion that the a solution worth trying is to have Penal and Conscripts separated into offensive and defensive infantry.
Penal become cheap 200-220 get ourah, molotov and 6 PPsh (Shock troops curve) and are the flanking/ anti-garrison infantry. (ourah has penalties that are reduced with veterancy).
Conscripts get target size 1, fragmentation grenade (tech cost), and a timed ability like hit the ground that cost MU but also increase their accuracy, AT grenade get some extra range. Doctrinal PPsh replaced by SVT upgrade.
With this solution there is room for both units to work together, with Penal being more usefull for flaking/urban map.
Penal become cheap 200-220 get ourah, molotov and 6 PPsh (Shock troops curve) and are the flanking/ anti-garrison infantry. (ourah has penalties that are reduced with veterancy).
Conscripts get target size 1, fragmentation grenade (tech cost), and a timed ability like hit the ground that cost MU but also increase their accuracy, AT grenade get some extra range. Doctrinal PPsh replaced by SVT upgrade.
With this solution there is room for both units to work together, with Penal being more usefull for flaking/urban map.
24 Jan 2017, 11:26 AM
#11
Posts: 525
Cons are plenty good already.
Just spam 8 of them, get AT nade and use rapid conscription
this doesn't really work,nor it happens...
At 5th con squad you are already against light vehicles...
24 Jan 2017, 11:44 AM
#12
Posts: 578
this doesn't really work,nor it happens...
At 5th con squad you are already against light vehicles...
Which die to AT nades.
Or you could just do 4v4 and use con spam there, where it is super OP
It's Relic's responsibility.
24 Jan 2017, 11:49 AM
#13
1 
Posts: 2885
this doesn't really work,nor it happens...
At 5th con squad you are already against light vehicles...
Where is Lenny when you need him
24 Jan 2017, 12:30 PM
#14
Posts: 525
Where is Lenny when you need him
Well Lenny was an exception when using that tactic...still was fun to watch,but no it doesn't work
If this was so efective no one would use Guards anymore,which I see in 90% of the games...
Con spam is easy to counter and predictable,as Ostheer at least.
24 Jan 2017, 13:03 PM
#15
Posts: 1605 | Subs: 1
Which die to AT nades.
Or you could just do 4v4 and use con spam there, where it is super OP
24 Jan 2017, 16:13 PM
#16
Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2
At the bottom of the ladder, everything works. It's not about real balance but perceived balance and "fairness".
My controls weren't working
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
24 Jan 2017, 17:39 PM
#17
Posts: 485 | Subs: 1
I feel like Cons should be main component of SU army, while T1 and T2 add just "something more" which Cons can't do, like suppresion, indirectfire, scout car, sniper or... utility infatry which would be Penals with some special abilities, useful in battle, but not that much.
For example demo charge could be taken away from enigs and given to Penals - just as as example.
Infantry which you don't need more than 1 squad.
Shame that currently Penals seem more of a mainline infantry than Cons.
+1
conscripts are way too weak, forcing people to go penals or heavily maxim.
making a weak core unit for soviet is a GOOD thing, but there is 'weak' and 'WEAK'.
when a 240 mp squad loose at every range to another 240 mp squad (aka grenadier), there is a problem.
same for AT grenade and molotov which cost 40 fuel to get unlocked (25 + 15 if i remember correctly) ..
Would be fun to see relic balance designer play as soviet,
i think the balance problem happens because no one at relic company is playing their game and so they can't see what is obvious to everyone. (that's a bit off topic but still true)
 | Playercard of le saucisson masqué | |||||||||||||||||||
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24 Jan 2017, 17:45 PM
#18
Posts: 1225
Conscripts aren't even weak, thats claptrap by people who've never used them. Its just that the alternatives builds, ie. Maxim centric or Penal centric are stronger still, and easier to use to boot.
Conscripts if properly microed will with a little muni expenditure usually beat Grens.
Conscripts if properly microed will with a little muni expenditure usually beat Grens.
25 Jan 2017, 06:09 AM
#19
Posts: 578
At the bottom of the ladder, everything works. It's not about real balance but perceived balance and "fairness".
Any smurf knows this.
Hence the massive amount of trolling and confusion in coh2, because of Relic's apalling matchmaking. No reasonable balance discussion possible.
So instead troll away to hearts' content.
It's Relic's responsibility.
25 Jan 2017, 06:32 AM
#20
Posts: 1605 | Subs: 1
Conscripts aren't even weak, thats claptrap by people who've never used them. Its just that the alternatives builds, ie. Maxim centric or Penal centric are stronger still, and easier to use to boot.
Conscripts if properly microed will with a little muni expenditure usually beat Grens.
Generally I agree, but I'd added that it highly depends on map.
And just for some input:
"How to beat Wehrmacht early game with just 3 cons" by Jesuliin
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