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russian armor

My 2 cents on penals (and guards) right now and with wbp.

19 Jan 2017, 03:06 AM
#1
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 3053

In the live version they're really really fucking good. No denying that, and the nerfs were warranted. I like the fact that they changed the flamer to add 3x ppshs so its not just a no-brainer upgrade anymore, but I'm still not totally on board with ptrs penals simply because of the overlap with guards. I kinda don't understand the nerfs to guards though, as they were already somewhat expensive, and 4 of their weapons require being stationary to fire. They also seem kinda squishy despite being a six man squad (might just be the fact that they are often fighting anti-infantry vehicles though). I mean, sure, guards are pretty highly used right now but I don't really think they are overpowered at all.
19 Jan 2017, 03:06 AM
#2
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 3053

To be clear, I just want to foster some discussion and see what players think about my views.
19 Jan 2017, 03:32 AM
#3
avatar of ZombiFrancis

Posts: 2742

Guards have always been about their PTRS. The only times I've seen them actually be strong AI units is when they have no DP-28s and they've dropped all their PTRS. (No DP-28s so they can fire on the move. LMGs are mostly defensive weapons unless used en masse.)

For some reason I remember Penals having flamers and 3x PPSh and it was removed because it was considered way too powerful. I think that was combined with their old vet though.
19 Jan 2017, 05:15 AM
#4
avatar of Waegukin

Posts: 609

I haven't used Guards much in the patch because I've been dicking around with PTRS Penals + Shocks (and For the Motherland).

Flamer + PPSH package works nicely now that the squad isn't quite as durable with vet.

PTRS package is mostly a great idea, it compliments Shocks and PPSH cons really well.

The issue now is that Penals have become a sort of do-all unit. Long range, short range, anti-garrison, anti-vehicle, its all in the Penal's repertoire. While I do appreciate stock Soviets having infantry AT since it does open up a few otherwise meh doctrines, I wish Cons had gotten the PTRS instead (out of scope, I know).
19 Jan 2017, 05:59 AM
#5
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 3053

I haven't used Guards much in the patch because I've been dicking around with PTRS Penals + Shocks (and For the Motherland).

Flamer + PPSH package works nicely now that the squad isn't quite as durable with vet.

PTRS package is mostly a great idea, it compliments Shocks and PPSH cons really well.

The issue now is that Penals have become a sort of do-all unit. Long range, short range, anti-garrison, anti-vehicle, its all in the Penal's repertoire. While I do appreciate stock Soviets having infantry AT since it does open up a few otherwise meh doctrines, I wish Cons had gotten the PTRS instead (out of scope, I know).

How come penal ptrs is in scope but cons ptrs isn't? That's partially my gripe with soviets right now: penals are better at everything than cons except for dying. Hell they even do that better with their vet1 passive.
19 Jan 2017, 06:18 AM
#6
avatar of TheMachine
Senior Caster Badge

Posts: 875 | Subs: 6

I fail to see how PTRS Penals overlap with guards anymore than half the other Commander call in units.

PTRS Penals
  • Not commander specific; Shouldn't we want to be encouraging off-meta commanders? PTRS Penals will open up more use of things like Shocks (at least, if they get buffed eventually)
  • Have 3 PTRS instead of 2
  • Penal PTRS are weak versus infantry which seriously degrades the performance. With AT Satchels and 3x PTRS, PTRS Penals are a much more dedicated AT squad
  • The 3 SVT Rifles are only good at close
  • Do not have durable veterancy bonuses
  • Get AT Satchels
  • Come out sooner than Guards and don't require 2CP
  • Cheaper at 300mp

Guards
  • Anti-everything squad with lots of long range damage. DP's and Guard PTRS murder infantry
  • Guard Mosin Rifles are better suited for range
  • Has Grenades to try and punish squads closing in
  • Is expensive at 360mp and 2 CP's
  • Doesn't require munitions for PTRS
  • Gets penetration bonuses with Vet
  • Gets button

TL;DR PTRS Penals are a more cheaper but more dedicated AT squad, while Guards are a more durable anti-everything squad with different utility. Regardless, Guards are COmmander specific! You're not always going to have Guards, there's like 25 Soviet Commanders.
19 Jan 2017, 06:22 AM
#7
avatar of TheMachine
Senior Caster Badge

Posts: 875 | Subs: 6



The issue now is that Penals have become a sort of do-all unit. Long range, short range, anti-garrison, anti-vehicle, its all in the Penal's repertoire. While I do appreciate stock Soviets having infantry AT since it does open up a few otherwise meh doctrines, I wish Cons had gotten the PTRS instead (out of scope, I know).


Penals are Short/medium range without PPSH Flamer Package anyway. So it doesn't really change their role that much, just throws in the anti-cover/garrison weapon. PTRS penals also don't have the strength of 2x Bazookas or PIAT's, despite the investment, so it's not like you can just spam them against armour. They're more of a support unit, to open up the use of Tier1 against early vehicles, they then continue to provide good defensive anti-vehicle support. The concept of "I'll just solve all my problems with Penal spam because they're so versatile" just doesn't hold up to any scrutiny in competitive play. Play some matches against good opponents and you'll see, they are not Riflemen.


How come penal ptrs is in scope but cons ptrs isn't? That's partially my gripe with soviets right now: penals are better at everything than cons except for dying. Hell they even do that better with their vet1 passive.


Even if we could, I don't like the idea of non-doctrinal Conscript PTRS. Conscripts are way more spammable and have far more utility than Penals. Cheesy stuff like 7x Conscript spam with PTRS would actually be viable, and that is scary. Anymore than 4x Penals is just suicide.
19 Jan 2017, 06:33 AM
#8
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 3053



Penals are Short/medium range without PPSH Flamer Package anyway. So it doesn't really change their role that much, just throws in the anti-cover/garrison weapon. PTRS penals also don't have the strength of 2x Bazookas or PIAT's, despite the investment, so it's not like you can just spam them against armour. They're more of a support unit, to open up the use of Tier1 against early vehicles, they then continue to provide good defensive anti-vehicle support. The concept of "I'll just solve all my problems with Penal spam because they're so versatile" just doesn't hold up to any scrutiny in competitive play. Play some matches against good opponents and you'll see, they are not Riflemen.



Even if we could, I don't like the idea of non-doctrinal Conscript PTRS. Conscripts are way more spammable and have far more utility than Penals. Cheesy stuff like 7x Conscript spam with PTRS would actually be viable, and that is scary. Anymore than 4x Penals is just suicide.

I see your point as to why it's a good idea. I'm still not really sure how I feel about it, but it does definitely seem balanced, so that's a plus. IIRC the penals ptrs does a decent amount of deflection damage, so it's got that and accuracy over bazookas right? Although wasn't ptrs conscript spam doable via the tank hunters commander?
19 Jan 2017, 06:41 AM
#9
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 3053

Guards have always been about their PTRS. The only times I've seen them actually be strong AI units is when they have no DP-28s and they've dropped all their PTRS. (No DP-28s so they can fire on the move. LMGs are mostly defensive weapons unless used en masse.)

For some reason I remember Penals having flamers and 3x PPSh and it was removed because it was considered way too powerful. I think that was combined with their old vet though.

I actually find guards to be a really good long range "hold the line" typey unit. They get durability and resistance to explosives since they are a 6 man squad, and the double dps+double ptrs does really good damage to infantry and light vehicles, and they can button and finish overextended tanks if you support them. Also, they're in guard motor tactics, one of the most versatile commanders out there imo. They just aren't that mobile, and I always felt that them having nades is weird for that reason. I honestly use the nades more as a defensive countermeasure to stgs or flamers than an offensive tool.
19 Jan 2017, 14:56 PM
#10
avatar of ZombiFrancis

Posts: 2742

I fail to see how PTRS Penals overlap with guards anymore than half the other Commander call in units.


I don't think they do. I think they underlap. :p

I mean, do Penal PTRS affect the viability of pure AI penals into guards? I mean, at all?

Because that's been the problem, (and what the scope was to address). Penals being even more cover-busting short-range AI units with PPSh/Flamers doesn't make Guards at 2 CP any less viable with their free PTRS to save the day against axis attempts to counter.

Current iteration of penal changes may make other doctrines 'less' punishing, but it kinda makes the best/most meta doctrine a little bit better. IMO, PTRS penals is more of an invitation to use Guards than anything, because when is a 'downgrade' upgrade worthwhile in this game?
19 Jan 2017, 15:41 PM
#11
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

For some reason I remember Penals having flamers and 3x PPSh and it was removed because it was considered way too powerful. I think that was combined with their old vet though.


I was not in alpha, but since beta:
-They used to come from Rapid Conscription (Opieop)
-They were a 360mp unit equivalent in cost with PG at that time. Satchel was a nuke bomb which would wipe any squad in deep snow and kill Penal models as well. Their SVT worked like G43 but they did drop models fast against LMG42/PG. They had the only flamer in the game which didn't explode.
-Not sure about the old veterancy (when OH double HP at vet2) but when they changed it, it remain the same as we have it now (bar the "To the last man". Oorah was at vet1)
-When they removed armor from infantry, they made them 270mp unit from 360mp.

So they basically never saw competitive play cause either T1 was too expensive (we use to start with less mp and tiers had a higher mp/fuel cost) or because they didn't provide anything useful (for flamer you had CE). Penals are suffering the same fate as Su76. No one used them in 3.5 years, so it's hard to adjust and balance it properly.


19 Jan 2017, 16:08 PM
#12
avatar of Blalord

Posts: 742 | Subs: 1



I was not in alpha, but since beta:
-They used to come from Rapid Conscription (Opieop)
-They were a 360mp unit equivalent in cost with PG at that time. Satchel was a nuke bomb which would wipe any squad in deep snow and kill Penal models as well. Their SVT worked like G43 but they did drop models fast against LMG42/PG. They had the only flamer in the game which didn't explode.
-Not sure about the old veterancy (when OH double HP at vet2) but when they changed it, it remain the same as we have it now (bar the "To the last man". Oorah was at vet1)
-When they removed armor from infantry, they made them 270mp unit from 360mp.

So they basically never saw competitive play cause either T1 was too expensive (we use to start with less mp and tiers had a higher mp/fuel cost) or because they didn't provide anything useful (for flamer you had CE). Penals are suffering the same fate as Su76. No one used them in 3.5 years, so it's hard to adjust and balance it properly.




Molo's / Omgpop / VonIvan Scout car flamers strategy or sniper clowncar are not agree with you ;D

Update: i misread your text! apologies, but well T1 has always been cool in my opinion, and Penals long range damage was good if merged properly

19 Jan 2017, 16:45 PM
#13
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Jan 2017, 16:08 PMBlalord


Molo's / Omgpop / VonIvan Scout car flamers strategy or sniper clowncar are not agree with you ;D

Update: i misread your text! apologies, but well T1 has always been cool in my opinion, and Penals long range damage was good if merged properly



Yeah T1 openings success had nothing to do with Penals. T1 was always carried by the performance of snipers or clowncars. When both units cheese were rightfully nerfed, no one bother making T1 again till the resurgence of Penals, which are mostly a higher issue on 2v2+
19 Jan 2017, 17:07 PM
#14
avatar of BIH_kirov_QC

Posts: 367



I don't think they do. I think they underlap. :p

I mean, do Penal PTRS affect the viability of pure AI penals into guards? I mean, at all?

Because that's been the problem, (and what the scope was to address). Penals being even more cover-busting short-range AI units with PPSh/Flamers doesn't make Guards at 2 CP any less viable with their free PTRS to save the day against axis attempts to counter.

Current iteration of penal changes may make other doctrines 'less' punishing, but it kinda makes the best/most meta doctrine a little bit better. IMO, PTRS penals is more of an invitation to use Guards than anything, because when is a 'downgrade' upgrade worthwhile in this game?


you seem to forgot the whole picture here. Gaurds cost more, and are less effective than live version. Penals are less effective than live version, okw got better healing while going for luchs, etc etc
19 Jan 2017, 18:42 PM
#15
avatar of Dangerous-Cloth

Posts: 2066

I fail to see how PTRS Penals overlap with guards anymore than half the other Commander call in units.


There is no reason to get guards anymore. Penals cover their role perfectly with even more functionality (apart from a grenade and lmg, but that is offset with flamethrower ppsh package, molotovs, a satchell that is both at and ai).

You can quite easily get penals, move into dhsk call in hmg and then get a T70 and stall your way into multiple m4c sherman call ins.

I can see your thoughts behind the acts of these balance changes and I think the intentions are well meant. But it won't change anything, since you can now crutch your way with penals to your call in units, which most likely will be dhsks and m4c shermans, because they offer perfect synergy. This strat in combination with maxim spam will be Soviet meta if the patch hits with the current balance mod aspects in place.

20 Jan 2017, 02:22 AM
#16
avatar of ZombiFrancis

Posts: 2742

M4c Shermans are such a lategame unit. Soviets are capable of getting a ton of fuel/map control early on that I've been finding it way easier to rush T4 and get T34s of either variety well before the CPs for M4C Shermans.

It's usually T34/85s because of Guard Motor though. I just haven't found the Lend Lease commander to synergize as well. I rarely need DSHk with Penals running around, at least against ostheer. Conscript repair's usefulness is kind of diminished unless I went T2.

Although I did get to use the M5 halftrack to get guards to a clutch VP in a game.
20 Jan 2017, 03:06 AM
#17
avatar of Mistah_S

Posts: 851 | Subs: 1

M4c Shermans are such a lategame unit. Soviets are capable of getting a ton of fuel/map control early on that I've been finding it way easier to rush T4 and get T34s of either variety well before the CPs for M4C Shermans.


+1.

Its a good suggestion cloth, but with how cheap t34's are, you would have 4 befire you have 1 Sherman.
20 Jan 2017, 03:17 AM
#18
avatar of ZombiFrancis

Posts: 2742



you seem to forgot the whole picture here. Gaurds cost more, and are less effective than live version. Penals are less effective than live version, okw got better healing while going for luchs, etc etc


Yes, this is true, but not my point.

My point is that when a guards commander is chosen there is little reason to get PTRS on penals. Even if both are weakened, it's not going to affect things like the viability of Guard Motor over other commanders. (I also believe the vast majority of instances of Guards being used is in conjunction with Guard Motor. 120mm mortars and self repair t34/85s attacking marked targets are no joke.)
20 Jan 2017, 06:36 AM
#19
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 3053



+1.

Its a good suggestion cloth, but with how cheap t34's are, you would have 4 befire you have 1 Sherman.

Yeah I find that just running them over with momentum from early game into a super rushed t34 will win most games. Sometimes I can even get a t34-85 out before the first pz4 if I'm really on a roll. I usually even skip the t70 since it's not that much sooner that it hits the field.
20 Jan 2017, 06:38 AM
#20
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 3053



Yes, this is true, but not my point.

My point is that when a guards commander is chosen there is little reason to get PTRS on penals. Even if both are weakened, it's not going to affect things like the viability of Guard Motor over other commanders. (I also believe the vast majority of instances of Guards being used is in conjunction with Guard Motor. 120mm mortars and self repair t34/85s attacking marked targets are no joke.)

Yeah that doctrines really good. Probably contributes to why we see so many guards.
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