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Idea: OKW - The second Ostheer

21 Aug 2016, 07:29 AM
#1
avatar of William Christensen

Posts: 401

Note: This is just an idea that I have been thinking about recently. It probably isn't a great balance idea or any better than the current state of OKW, but I'm just gonna put this here and see how people react. ‎

So by the title, this idea will make OKW seems rather like a second Ostheer. However, before you guys spamming in how dumb this idea is (Which basically, it is), we can all agree at one thing: Vanilla factions have the best design. So I was thinking: How about we redesign new factions back to be similar to the old one? I know, it will ruin the new factions' special features and such, but these new power creep factions are making old vanilla factions struggle for non-professional players (which are like 90% of the player base). 

EDIT: Ok, for new people that just come in or those are too lazy to check the rest of the discussion, the reason why I said OKW will be the second Ostheer according to my post is due to the similarities in units composition in tiers/tech structures, NOT ‎that OKW gonna be the Ostheer clone! Why are there similarities? Just read below and imagine the tech structures individually and as a whole.‎

I will start with OKW first since I have been playing as them recently and see them either shine or die quite unexpectedly! So this would hopefully helps them:‎

1. Forward Retreat Point's cost is reduced to 200 MP.‎
"In the past, the FRP was 300 MP due to the fact that you have free medics. Now you have to 100 extra MP to unlock the medics, shouldn't the price for the FRP be 200 MP? "

2. Sturmpioneers: Remove the Panzerschreck upgrade; make flamethrower upgrade non-doc.
"Sturmpioneers right now are carrying to many duties and most of time, many just won't give them Schreck since it's too risky (You removed its mine-clearing capability). By removing Schreck and give them non-doc flamethrower, they are now act like Ost's pioneer: An engineer unit excels in close combat and dealing with units in buildings/trenches/emplacements"‎

‎3. Volksgrenadiers: Replace 2 StG44s package with a LMG 34 upgrade; replace incendiary grenade with normal grenade.‎
"I still think that the double StG44s are great, it's an overall increase in performance after all. However, volks is a long-range units and become defensive later on in the game due to the fact that rifles/penals are better at attacking through open ground. The StG44s would help remove closing-in enemies, but we already have Sturmpioneers for that job. By giving volks LMG 34, volks will now excels in long-range combat while Sturm will helps with dealing with CQC units. On the other hand, since Sturms are now effective at dealing with units in building due to change 2, there is no need for incendiary grenade."

EDIT: (Up for debate) LMG 34 can be replace by LMG 42 or 2 G43s.‎
"It seems that the LMG 34 is stronger than my initial expectation so it is up for debate: Replace it with the LMG 42 or 2 G43s? Or a new weapon that excel in long-range combat? Idea?"

4. (Debatable) Replace the Raketenwerfer with the 50mm Pak 38 (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/5_cm_Pak_38) which at Tier 1 (The Base HQ) but unlock and buyable after setting up a truck.‎
"The Raketenwerfer is actually very good in my opinion, the only problem I have would be its aim time. Sure we can fix the aim time but then we would have a stealth, quick-aim, quick-fire AT gun that would strike at any time (Especially after vet 1). So unless its aim time can be fix well enough without make it being like above then sure, no need for this change, but according to what I have seen, many people seems to prefer a frontline AT to a hit-and-run one so probably this change would be better."‎

5. Obersoldatens: Move to Tier 2 (Medic HQ) building; replace LMG 34 upgrade with a double Schrecks upgrade for 120 muni ; cost reduce to 350-375 MP.
"Since Sturms no longer carry the duty of being the mobile AT unit, Ober would be a good replacement, in my opinion. Right now, they come out too late to actually make a different and for a 400 MP anti-infantry unit, they just won't stand a chance. By giving them double Schrecks upgrade and come out at Tier 2 (Medic HQ), they can now fulfill the roll of elite infantry like Panzergrenadiers (Except long range), AI early and AT later on while also give T2 a better chance in fighting against LVs rush. The price reduction could get a reconsideration though."

6. Flak HT: Reduce fuel cost to 40; reduce set up time to about 2.5 - 3 seconds.
"This unit is like a rather-static-and-defensive suppression platform that better than the MG 34, in my opinion. However, its fuel cost is just too much for an AI unit and the set-up time right now is rather slow. By doing what proposes above, people will actually use this unit rather than just plain MG34s and have no vehicles presence on the field."

7. (Probably not needed anymore due to change 2 but this feature is rather important for all factions) ISG: Give the abilty to fire smoke rounds.
"This probably not needed since Sturm can now have flamethrower to deal with units in buildings, but smoke is rather important. By giving smoke to ISG, OKW can deal with buildings with volks while not having Sturm around."

8. Move the Stuka to Tier 4 (The Schwerer HQ) while give Tier 3 (The Mech HQ) the SdKfz 251 half-track.
"Going Tier 3 right now as OKW means that you can go LVs strat but your infantry force's field presence would be rather low since you don't have FRP. By giving Tier 3 the SdKfz 251, OKW can be aggresive more effective and combine arms, rather than just LVs. Meanwhile, putting the Stuka to Tier 4 would allow player that go Tier 2 to get access to the Stuka without having to back-teched to Tier 3 after going Tier 4 and at the same time, preventing the Stuka from getting to the field earlier that other rocket arty units like Katy, Panzerwerfer."

Other units that I haven't mentioned about will be either they are fine or I'm just not sure how to change them. If anyone have any different ideas/changes, I would gladly listened. We are here to discuss/debate, right?‎

Just a reminder: other two Allies factions (USF and Brits) may need to revamp too, to be like the SU, but right now, OKW seem to have quite a hard time in picking going Med HQ or Mec HQ since go either will put them into a higher risk than other factions, in my opinion.‎
21 Aug 2016, 09:21 AM
#2
avatar of A. Soldier
Social Media Manager Badge

Posts: 2703 | Subs: 2

And make the MG34 Tier 0 like the mg42 and buff it a little bit since it's shite now anyway, and of course make it cost like 240/250 man power after that.

But yeah, I like the idea very much.

You're getting a Wehrmacht that is comparable in role and function but you're paying for all of the extra features like FRPs and better tanks.

Prob is OKW has the KT by default, the Wehr doesn't have their Tiger by default in comparison.

As far as the UKF and USF go, I think they're easy as well.

Just replace the mortar pit with a mobile mortar and make the pit into a garrisonable emplacement. Problem solved.

Just move around the units in the different tiers, support weapons go to LT tier, light vehicles in Captain tier. And maybe if you're aiming for a little bit of nostalgia replace the RE with Combat Engieers in Tier 0 but of course, give them tank traps. So basically the RE become the 4 man Osttruppen squad with which you can build more shit with than just bunkers and trenches.
21 Aug 2016, 10:30 AM
#3
avatar of William Christensen

Posts: 401

And make the MG34 Tier 0 like the mg42 and buff it a little bit since it's shite now anyway, and of course make it cost like 240/250 man power after that.

But yeah, I like the idea very much.

You're getting a Wehrmacht that is comparable in role and function but you're paying for all of the extra features like FRPs and better tanks.

Prob is OKW has the KT by default, the Wehr doesn't have their Tiger by default in comparison.

As far as the UKF and USF go, I think they're easy as well.

Just replace the mortar pit with a mobile mortar and make the pit into a garrisonable emplacement. Problem solved.

Just move around the units in the different tiers, support weapons go to LT tier, light vehicles in Captain tier. And maybe if you're aiming for a little bit of nostalgia replace the RE with Combat Engieers in Tier 0 but of course, give them tank traps. So basically the RE become the 4 man Osttruppen squad with which you can build more shit with than just bunkers and trenches.


I'm not very keen on the idea of making MG34 a tier 0 unit much since I think OKW should be an aggressive Ostheer, so when the two factions are used at the same game, they'll cover each other's weaknesses. 

I want to think the MG34 is like the alternative suppression platform in case you lose the Flak HT (I bring up the idea of buffing the Flak HT so OKW can be more mobile when go Med HQ). 

About the KT, I'm kinda wondering either make the Tiger (Ostheer) non-doc and buyable after unlocking all Battle Phases or make the KT a doctrinal tank (The Elite Armour Doctrine would sound fit for the King; The Sturmtiger can be non-doc like in the past since it just the Brumbarr on steroid anyway :P).

I might make another ideas for the UKF and the USF too, but I think many people can do it just by switching units like you said.‎
21 Aug 2016, 10:53 AM
#4
avatar of A. Soldier
Social Media Manager Badge

Posts: 2703 | Subs: 2



I'm not very keen on the idea of making MG34 a tier 0 unit much since I think OKW should be an aggressive Ostheer, so when the two factions are used at the same game, they'll cover each other's weaknesses. 

I want to think the MG34 is like the alternative suppression platform in case you lose the Flak HT (I bring up the idea of buffing the Flak HT so OKW can be more mobile when go Med HQ). 

About the KT, I'm kinda wondering either make the Tiger (Ostheer) non-doc and buyable after unlocking all Battle Phases or make the KT a doctrinal tank (The Elite Armour Doctrine would sound fit for the King; The Sturmtiger can be non-doc like in the past since it just the Brumbarr on steroid anyway :P).

I might make another ideas for the UKF and the USF too, but I think many people can do it just by switching units like you said.‎


Nah I just suggested it since the topic IS about the OKW being the second Wehrmacht, and unless they bug fix and buff the Flak HT live you've suggested OKW is really, really going to need a buffed Tier 0 MG34 even more than they do now.

Actually scratch that, they need it now more than ever as they're pretty weak in the current patch.

Raketen is bugged and ineffective while Sturms get wiped pretty easily in the Anti-Tank infantry role more than they usually are in the close combat/repair/building role.

I just don't know and can't explain it to myself what went wrong with the Preview build, everything was working so fine and there were a hell of a lot less bugs than there are now in the live build.

It just doesn't make any sense, it's like somebody made everything to work and then somebody else just messed with the code intentionally to ruin everybody's fun and expectations of the new patch. Them trying to fix the USF mortar for a month is a testament to that.
21 Aug 2016, 11:04 AM
#5
avatar of shake4parkinson

Posts: 116

Permanently Banned

2. Sturmpioneers: Remove the Panzerschreck upgrade
‎‎


miragefla stopped reading here x~~D
21 Aug 2016, 11:26 AM
#6
avatar of strafniki

Posts: 523 | Subs: 1

suggested revamp the #103070530

GO!
aaa
21 Aug 2016, 11:36 AM
#7
avatar of aaa

Posts: 1437

guy has 1600 rank as okw2v2. no 1v1 games
21 Aug 2016, 11:53 AM
#8
avatar of turbotortoise

Posts: 1173 | Subs: 3

I'll be honest, it's early, and I stopped reading your argument when I comprehended: "make OKW like the Wehrmacht.... Forward Retreat Point's cost is reduced.... "
21 Aug 2016, 12:50 PM
#9
avatar of William Christensen

Posts: 401

suggested revamp the #103070530

GO!


jump backJump back to quoted post21 Aug 2016, 11:36 AMaaa
guy has 1600 rank as okw2v2. no 1v1 games


Again, I have noted before I even started : It's just an idea, not like the one that needed to be implemented immediately or the perfect balance thing ever! If there is something wrong or not like what you want/think it would be good, just said it out, I would gladly listened! But if you just gonna look at my low skill to not give any suggestions or reasons why you don't agree with what I posted, which most of them are based around common sense and simpliest reasonings, then please, you guys are lengthening the discussion with nothingness.

I agree, i'm not the best player, probably not even a good player. However, I have not touched to the stats and such, just plain overall things that even a normal person can understand. If you guys are better, please teach me.

I'll be honest, it's early, and I stopped reading your argument when I comprehended: "make OKW like the Wehrmacht.... Forward Retreat Point's cost is reduced.... "


What I meant here is the similarity in units in tiers/tech structures. Like Obers in Tier 2 would be like Panzergrenadiers in Ost; Volks with lmg34 would seem like Grenadiers; Sturmpioneer would seem similar to Ost's pioneers; etc. I didn't meant to make OKW exactly the same. Just "rather like". 

The FRP is kinda off-topic but I just have to put that in.‎



nee
21 Aug 2016, 13:19 PM
#10
avatar of nee

Posts: 1216


1. Forward Retreat Point's cost is reduced to 200 MP.‎
"In the past, the FRP was 300 MP due to the fact that you have free medics. Now you have to 100 extra MP to unlock the medics, shouldn't the price for the FRP be 200 MP?"

I would agree, especially when you consider that USF in comparison gets three free units- the officer squads that allow for map presence as well as unique abilities; OKW for their part used to get "free" abilities but only once their trucks were deployed; and the immobility and locality of these abilities (which aren't unique in themselves either- they are basically the idle passive versions of Sturmpioniers repair and medkits). This also means that USF players by virtue of teching to T4 and getting Major "for free" also gets FRP for free.
Now of coures you can say they are only free the first time you tech up, but that's the same excuse for the OKW trucks, but unlike officer squads, an OKW player absolutely needs HQ trucks up and running; they don't require 0 Fuel when you deploy a T4 for the second time.


2. Sturmpioneers: Remove the Panzerschreck upgrade; make flamethrower upgrade non-doc.
"Sturmpioneers right now are carrying to many duties and most of time, many just won't give them Schreck since it's too risky (You removed its mine-clearing capability). By removing Schreck and give them non-doc flamethrower, they are now act like Ost's pioneer: An engineer unit excels in close combat and dealing with units in buildings/trenches/emplacements"‎

Volksgrenadiers already have the incendiary grenade, which arguably replaces the flamer role, even if it costs munitions each use and results in overall higher munitions expenditure for OKW. Which for your part you have a good point: the lack of flamer puts OKW at a munitions-cost disadvantage, especially when accompanied by having to equip Sturmpioners with one of two upgrades (mutually exclusive, no less), while also expecting to perform in combat AND construction/ repair. Way too many duties for the game's most expensive builder squad, and they don't even get the benefit of larger squad size.


‎3. Volksgrenadiers: Replace 2 StG44s package with a LMG 34 upgrade; replace incendiary grenade with normal grenade.‎
"I still think that the double StG44s are great, it's an overall increase in performance after all. However, volks is a long-range units and become defensive later on in the game due to the fact that rifles/penals are better at attacking through open ground. The StG44s would help remove closing-in enemies, but we already have Sturmpioneers for that job. By giving volks LMG 34, volks will now excels in long-range combat while Sturm will helps with dealing with CQC units. On the other hand, since Sturms are now effective at dealing with units in building due to change 2, there is no need for incendiary grenade."

Only thing I really hate about the StG44 upgrade is that it locks out both weapon slots, reducing the Volks' potential for versatility that OKW players need to prevent picking up dropped stuff that would make them more useful or more powerful.
Obviously your LMG34 idea is to make them a bit more like Grenadiers, in that case I wouldn't mind, but a five-man squad five vet5 would claerly be much more powerful than the Ostheer variant.


4. (Debatable) Replace the Raketenwerfer with the 50mm Pak 38 (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/5_cm_Pak_38) which at Tier 1 (The Base HQ) but unlock and buyable after setting up a truck.‎
"The Raketenwerfer is actually very good in my opinion, the only problem I have would be its aim time. Sure we can fix the aim time but then we would have a stealth, quick-aim, quick-fire AT gun that would strike at any time (Especially after vet 1). So unless its aim time can be fix well enough without make it being like above then sure, no need for this change, but according to what I have seen, many people seems to prefer a frontline AT to a hit-and-run one so probably this change would be better."‎

More practical idea would be to simply buff the Raketen's problems to comparable level of other AT Guns. If your car has been fitted with the wrong tires, it's far more practical to just change the tires than buying a new car, or in this case, inventing a new car with the sole purpose of replicating the first; the only real unique characteristics about Rak43 is able to retreat and cloak.

Anyways end of the day, making OKW a Ostheer clone is basically fraudulent: everyone bought the OKW DLC faction because they wanted an Axis faction that operated differently; if you want to play as Ostheer you just play as Ostheer. Why buy X faction and desire the the qualities of Y faction, when you should have just bought and played as Y faction? There is also the fact that Relic would be legally obligated to re-write a great deal of their advertising to conform to the new standard- that is, they operate just like Ostheer. It's no wonder they drag their feet on changes: change too much and they become a faction clone; change too little and the bitching continues.

Vanilla factions having "best design" is only because they are the first foundational ones- their design influences how future factions can be designed. Under an asymmetrical design standpoint, this naturally means that after producing product X and Y, the product Z needs to be close to X and Y, but distinct enough to not ruin the balance of between three. Not exactly an easy task, especially with the crew that Relic has to work with (not implying incompetence but rather limited resources and freedoms needed to implement). This also leaves Relic with choosing one of two terrible choices: make the vanilla factions good enough to sell and roll with it when trying to design new factions (which they did, and unsurprisingly having trouble with), or plan the entire thing from the start and sell incrementally, which they might also have done and paints the "milking for DLC" targets on their back...which they also did.
This wouldn't even be that bad if it was just done well. Difference between Relic and companies like Blizzard isn't the future-product/ DLC milking scheme, but rather if said schemes are actually good products; Blizzard isn't having a troubling time balancing out and debugging Reaper of Souls and other post-release game changes, biggest of all reasons is very extensive (and public) testing that is separate from the live game.
21 Aug 2016, 13:26 PM
#11
avatar of mortiferum

Posts: 554

I did not buy OKW, to play Ostheer v2.
21 Aug 2016, 13:30 PM
#12
avatar of A. Soldier
Social Media Manager Badge

Posts: 2703 | Subs: 2

I did not buy OKW, to play Ostheer v2.


And I didn't buy them only to have Relic revamp them twice doing more damage than help.
21 Aug 2016, 13:34 PM
#13
avatar of Thunderhun

Posts: 1593



And I didn't buy them only to have Relic revamp them twice doing more damage than help.


This
21 Aug 2016, 15:35 PM
#14
avatar of Tobis
Senior Strategist Badge
Donator 11

Posts: 2178 | Subs: 4

Why not just play Ostheer then....
21 Aug 2016, 16:02 PM
#15
avatar of Butcher

Posts: 1072

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Aug 2016, 15:35 PMTobis
Why not just play Ostheer then....
Because Ostheer is shit. OKW still has the better units in every regard except MG42 and Pak.
21 Aug 2016, 16:03 PM
#16
avatar of William Christensen

Posts: 401

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Aug 2016, 15:35 PMTobis
Why not just play Ostheer then....


Well I do play Ostheer, but the faction just seems too fragile. Their concept and the faction as a whole are great, but too fragile for me to actually handle them. OKW, on the other hand, seems less fragile but having problems with their teching system, in my opinion. (Go Med, you get overrun by LVs rush; go Mec, MP bleed and the lack of field presence when have to retreat).

Of course, both Ost and Sov having problems with field presence due to no FRPs. They should have it, probably like:
- Ostheer: Command bunker now allows to be set as FRP (Cost or not is debatable)
- Soviet: A Commissar squad that allows FRP like the USF's Major (Probably an unlock in Base HQ? Again, debatable)

However, I said it's a second Ostheer just because I find similarities in units composition in tiers/tech buildings. The way the factions fight (Defensive-heavy or Aggressive) are still different from each others.‎
21 Aug 2016, 16:05 PM
#17
avatar of Dangerous-Cloth

Posts: 2066

Good idea, since Ostheer is hopeless we must also make OKW even more hopeless. Might as well change Auto-Match to Allies vs Allies since both Axis factions are raped by nerfs and horrible design.
21 Aug 2016, 16:15 PM
#18
avatar of William Christensen

Posts: 401

Good idea, since Ostheer is hopeless we must also make OKW even more hopeless. Might as well change Auto-Match to Allies vs Allies since both Axis factions are raped by nerfs and horrible design.


I don't think the changes I proposed would make OKW more hopeless. I mean:

- Give players that go Med HQ a more reliable mobile AT unit (Ober according to change 5) and a rework/better Flak HT (According to change 6) which helps in suppression platform, rather than just MG34s.

-Give players that go Mec HQ a mobile reinforement platform (SdKfz 251 according to change 8) which helps in keeping units on the field more effectively.

So basically, it helps OKW players in picking either go Med (Rather defensive play) or go Mec (Aggressive play) without either being annihilate by LVs rush or too heavy MP bleed, respectively. I would go as far to say that I might have buff OKW, but seriously, they are struggle in 2v2 a lot.‎
21 Aug 2016, 17:00 PM
#19
avatar of Dangerous-Cloth

Posts: 2066



I don't think the changes I proposed would make OKW more hopeless. I mean:

- Give players that go Med HQ a more reliable mobile AT unit (Ober according to change 5) and a rework/better Flak HT (According to change 6) which helps in suppression platform, rather than just MG34s.

-Give players that go Mec HQ a mobile reinforement platform (SdKfz 251 according to change 8) which helps in keeping units on the field more effectively.

So basically, it helps OKW players in picking either go Med (Rather defensive play) or go Mec (Aggressive play) without either being annihilate by LVs rush or too heavy MP bleed, respectively. I would go as far to say that I might have buff OKW, but seriously, they are struggle in 2v2 a lot.‎


You're right, good suggestions.
21 Aug 2016, 18:25 PM
#20
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 4315 | Subs: 7

I survived the point with make OKW oshteer again

I surived the point with cheap forward retreat point


BUT GIVING VOLKS 60 MG34 UPGRADE WAS TOO MUCH EVEN FOR ME

IM SORRY BUT NO FOR ME FORGET IT
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