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Ostheer Grenadiers

23 Aug 2016, 09:30 AM
#41
avatar of aomsinzana

Posts: 284 | Subs: 1

its mean fix all Osteer infatry Vet mechanicism FailFish

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Aug 2016, 09:29 AMFul4n0

...

why OKW is the only faction having non-doc heavy???
...


how about British Churchill bro ? Kappa
23 Aug 2016, 09:32 AM
#42
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17581 | Subs: 8



Riflemen and Infantry sections are supposed to work in the same way are they not? Why can vet 3 riflemen roam the field with impunity whilst grenadiers and conscripts get raped by anything that does damage?


*looks at costs of units and its upgrades*

I do wonder indeed why 280mp/120mun unit can do more on the field alone then 240mp only or 240mp/60mun unit.
What would be the cause of that...
23 Aug 2016, 09:37 AM
#43
avatar of Stark

Posts: 623 | Subs: 1



This game would be so much better if all infantry bar Paras/Obers get efficient DPS of 1 regular LMG.


Yeah i prefer this way of thinking by not buffing grens but just nerfing those units who overperform. As Magic said, we don't need more terminator infantry, we don't need more infantry blobs.
23 Aug 2016, 09:38 AM
#44
avatar of Ful4n0

Posts: 345

its mean fix all Osteer infatry Vet mechanicism FailFish


how about British Churchill bro ? Kappa



jump backJump back to quoted post23 Aug 2016, 09:29 AMFul4n0

why OKW and BRITS are the only faction having non-doc heavy???



now is it OK for you??? the point of my post remains the same....
23 Aug 2016, 09:51 AM
#45
avatar of aomsinzana

Posts: 284 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Aug 2016, 09:32 AMKatitof


*looks at costs of units and its upgrades*

I do wonder indeed why 280mp/120mun unit can do more on the field alone then 240mp only or 240mp/60mun unit.
What would be the cause of that...


dear Katitof
yes it true about 120 mun upgrade are better that 60 mun upgrade
if its like u said
Gren are 4-men squad need 240 MP = 60 MP per model
Rifleman are 5-men squad need 280 MP = 56 MP per model
i dont remember it well but Gren also cost more reinforce than Rifleman

i just wonder y cheaper rifleman is better than Grens
(run for my life)
23 Aug 2016, 09:52 AM
#46
avatar of Thunderhun

Posts: 1593

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Aug 2016, 09:38 AMFul4n0






now is it OK for you??? the point of my post remains the same....


Yes, your failfish to understand how factions works and bias remains the same
23 Aug 2016, 11:08 AM
#47
avatar of vietnamabc

Posts: 1061

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Aug 2016, 09:32 AMKatitof


*looks at costs of units and its upgrades*

I do wonder indeed why 280mp/120mun unit can do more on the field alone then 240mp only or 240mp/60mun unit.
What would be the cause of that...

Don't forget the cost to get that 120mp and grenade too. Gren got free upgrade from tech so OH got to pay more mp for them later. Also I'll take faust over crappy AT rifle-nade everyday.
The only thing I dislike about Gren is the 4-man clumping syndrome: these guys got wiped by AOE way too easy, especially against T-70, the rest is fine.
23 Aug 2016, 11:19 AM
#48
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17581 | Subs: 8



dear Katitof
yes it true about 120 mun upgrade are better that 60 mun upgrade
if its like u said
Gren are 4-men squad need 240 MP = 60 MP per model
Rifleman are 5-men squad need 280 MP = 56 MP per model
i dont remember it well but Gren also cost more reinforce than Rifleman

i just wonder y cheaper rifleman is better than Grens
(run for my life)

You are aware that model cost depend on squad cost and squad size and reinforcing squad to full is still cheaper for grens?

What costs less?
3x30 or 4x28?

On per model basis, grens are stronger. But you are not fighting 4 rifles, but 5.
23 Aug 2016, 11:28 AM
#49
avatar of Dangerous-Cloth

Posts: 2066

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Aug 2016, 09:29 AMFul4n0


why OST has t0 mg-42 and USF has to tech to get mg???

why USF tanks are paper tanks???

why OKW and BRITS are the only faction having non-doc heavy???

why USF rifles has to tech to get nades and have to be vet 1 to have snare???

why RE have shit fighting capabilities while spios are fucking gold when flanking enemy squads???

why RE and spios have to choose a commnader to get flames while SU and OST have them by default, even without side tech??



you have to look at the whole picture....



You project it like USF has many problems that directly fight its effectiveness. But the statistics and the tourney matches show a different picture. USF stomps Ostheer into the ground and you know it.
23 Aug 2016, 11:33 AM
#50
avatar of Dangerous-Cloth

Posts: 2066

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Aug 2016, 09:32 AMKatitof


*looks at costs of units and its upgrades*

I do wonder indeed why 280mp/120mun unit can do more on the field alone then 240mp only or 240mp/60mun unit.
What would be the cause of that...


Correct. The point is not that they are better than grenadiers that frustrates me, the point that frustrates me is why I can't do the same with Ostheer. Grenadiers's design dictates that they stand still and in cover to be effective, yet allied counterparts are running up to grenadiers in cover with double lmg upgrades firing on the move and negating this design completely. (not even adding the terminator USF mortar to this equation)

I don't mind allied double lmg upgrades as long as I could double upgrade grenadiers too. But if we mention this, grenadiers would be OP, even when they need to stand still to use these double lmgs. Meanwhile USF riflemen and UKF infantry sections are fine running around with their double lmg upgrades firing on the move and destroying support weapons in their wake by simply a-moving up to them, simply because they cost 120 munitions to get these weapons.

This isn't balanced if it negates another faction's design whilst also not giving this other faction the same effectiveness in upgrades. The cost to get this functionality isn't a valid argument since every Ostheer player would be happy to pay 120 munitions for double upgraded lmg42 grenadiers, but they can't.

This issue is unacceptable.
23 Aug 2016, 13:13 PM
#51
avatar of Schmitz

Posts: 88 | Subs: 1

I think that the grens reinforcement cost should be lowered. I mean, yea, a Brit section costs more initially but (afaik) the Brit section reinforcement cost is only 25 vs gren 30, which very quickly nullifies the initial 40 mp difference in building cost.
23 Aug 2016, 13:29 PM
#52
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17581 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Aug 2016, 13:13 PMSchmitz
I think that the grens reinforcement cost should be lowered. I mean, yea, a Brit section costs more initially but (afaik) the Brit section reinforcement cost is only 25 vs gren 30, which very quickly nullifies the initial 40 mp difference in building cost.

Tommies reinforce for 28, same as rifle and also have 5 men when upgraded, so it makes sense for them to cost as another 5 men 280mp squad.
23 Aug 2016, 13:57 PM
#53
avatar of Myself

Posts: 677

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Aug 2016, 11:19 AMKatitof

You are aware that model cost depend on squad cost and squad size and reinforcing squad to full is still cheaper for grens?

What costs less?
3x30 or 4x28?
...

Cost to fully reinforce a squad is rather irrelevant...

Squads with more members generally bleed less, can stay on the field longer and are harder to be wiped out...

Having less entities in a squads, hardly gives any advantage to the squad, while having more entities does.
23 Aug 2016, 14:12 PM
#54
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17581 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Aug 2016, 13:57 PMMyself

Cost to fully reinforce a squad is rather irrelevant...

On the contrary.
You will want to retreat the squad soon enough to prevent potential wipes or late enough to have it as long as possible, you might retreat more numerous squad later DEPENDING ON MATCHUP(as various squads and factions vary greatly in DPS), if you retreat after losing about half the squad, depending on faction, you'll pay the same or more for reinforce, so on the long run, more numerous squads retreat just as often and pay just as much. You can see that in end game model loses statistic, side with more numerous squads loses more models unless its a stomp, cost to reinforce squad fully is relevant here.

Squads with more members generally bleed less, can stay on the field longer and are harder to be wiped out...

Ever played USF vs ost sniper?
Soviet con builds vs ost or OKW?

Unless you play stupid and use just general infantry as axis, its allies who bleed more here-unbearable bleed was the cause why tommies got their reinforce cost decrease in the first place.

How hard is to wipe unit depends purely on 3 things-how far the unit is when it starts to retreat, how good its condition is(it doesn't matter if you retreat with 6 men when each of them got 8 health left, single full health gren will be more durable) and where and what opposing units are on field(easier to retreat vs small arms, harder vs tanks).

Retreating 1 man gren is just as likely to get wiped as retreating 1 man con or rifle.
23 Aug 2016, 14:20 PM
#55
avatar of Dangerous-Cloth

Posts: 2066

Katikof still not responding to my post. Good to see even he cant disagree with logic :snfPeter:
23 Aug 2016, 14:33 PM
#56
avatar of strafniki

Posts: 558 | Subs: 1

yeah right, rifles + IS can carry 2 LMGs. simply limit them to a single one, done. no need to buff grens with mg42 since its doing the hell of a damage
23 Aug 2016, 14:33 PM
#57
avatar of strafniki

Posts: 558 | Subs: 1

Katikof still not responding to my post. Good to see even he cant disagree with logic :snfPeter:

look at one post before yours.. :nahnah:
23 Aug 2016, 14:59 PM
#58
avatar of Highfiveeeee

Posts: 1740

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Aug 2016, 09:29 AMFul4n0


why OST has t0 mg-42 and USF has to tech to get mg???

why USF tanks are paper tanks???

why OKW and BRITS are the only faction having non-doc heavy???

why USF rifles has to tech to get nades and have to be vet 1 to have snare???

why RE have shit fighting capabilities while spios are fucking gold when flanking enemy squads???

why RE and spios have to choose a commnader to get flames while SU and OST have them by default, even without side tech??



you have to look at the whole picture....



why does USF have a mortar that denies Ostheer MG42s and Mortars leaving them only sucky grens?

why does every Allied faction have a light vehicle (especially terminator T70s !!!) and neither Ostheer nor OKW have a counter that is not unrealiable and cheesy (double 222) or simply sucks cock (Raketenwerfer)?

why do German tanks cost more while being inferior (P4 vs Cromwell) on factions that suffer like hell in the early game that you are already ressource starved in the mid game?

why do Germans rely so much on green cover and still getting wiped behind it regularly because USF and UKF have killer mortars?

why can most Allied mediums crush reliably while German ones struggle extremely with it?

why do all allies have 5 man main line infantry (with UKF upgrade) while Ostheer does not and is not better in any kind?

why are there 95% of allied dominating videos (no casts) on youtube while there have only been a few German ones for ages?

why do neither OKW nor Ostheer have access to demolition charges even though they clearly suffer the most from USF blobs?

why does only Ostheer need to create a building in order to create its mainline infantry?

why is the MG34 absolutely garbage and needs a building in order to be built?

etc.

23 Aug 2016, 15:07 PM
#59
avatar of Dangerous-Cloth

Posts: 2066


look at one post before yours.. :nahnah:


Alright, it seems he can disagree with logic. Well then :foreveralone:
23 Aug 2016, 15:08 PM
#60
avatar of Myself

Posts: 677

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Aug 2016, 14:12 PMKatitof

On the contrary.
..., if you retreat after losing about half the squad, depending on faction, you'll pay the same or more for reinforce, so on the long run, more numerous squads retreat just as often and pay just as much.

A 6 model squad need to lose 3 entities to be half HP a 4 men 2. So bigger squads retreat generally less. The cost per entity lost or even per EHP is also less for bigger squads in most cases...

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Aug 2016, 14:12 PMKatitof

You can see that in end game model loses statistic, side with more numerous squads loses more models unless its a stomp, cost to reinforce squad fully is relevant here.

Again rather irrelevant since smaller squads tend to have smaller those are killed less but they also are more XP and can be wiped out easier...Unless game statics provided how much MP a player has spend on reinforcing infantry there is little relevance...

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Aug 2016, 14:12 PMKatitof

Ever played USF vs ost sniper?

Again rather irrelevant.That has more to with the sniper and less with the squad size. Sniper are allot more effective versus smaller squads and that is why Osth sniper fires faster...


jump backJump back to quoted post23 Aug 2016, 14:12 PMKatitof

How hard is to wipe unit depends purely on 3 things-.


Simple NO, it actually depend on plethora of things among them how close all squad member are located compared to AOE of explosive weapon...

My argument is simple and still stands:
"Having less entities in a squads, hardly gives any advantage to the squad, while having more entities does."

If in your opinion a squads will less members has a notable advantage pls explain what that is...
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