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Ostheer Grenadiers

19 Aug 2016, 01:44 AM
#1
avatar of iceman

Posts: 148


Help me understand this... So Riflemen and British Infantry get to purchase 2 guns and can just walk up to any MG42/34 and practically waste it, but Ostheer grenadiers can only purchase/upgrade to one gun. Why can't the Ostheer go back to having the LMGs and G43 rifles at the same time?
19 Aug 2016, 01:54 AM
#2
avatar of suuuhdude

Posts: 44

I second this. Allow grenadiers to be able to upgrade both if they are going to continue being the weakest mainline inf in the game
19 Aug 2016, 02:02 AM
#3
avatar of Smiling Tiger

Posts: 207

I think this would be a good change but dont grenadiers already cost a lot of munitions to use?
19 Aug 2016, 02:50 AM
#4
avatar of easierwithaturret

Posts: 247

How come Grenadier weapon upgrade is better than Bar or Bren despite costing the same munitions, how come Grens can get their LMG anywhere in territory but Allies have to go back to base, how come LMG is available as soon as you get BP1 but Allies have to pay fuel and MP for the unlock?

There are problems facing Grenadiers but this isn't one of them.
19 Aug 2016, 03:24 AM
#5
avatar of Firesparks

Posts: 1930

How come Grenadier weapon upgrade is better than Bar or Bren despite costing the same munitions, how come Grens can get their LMG anywhere in territory but Allies have to go back to base, how come LMG is available as soon as you get BP1 but Allies have to pay fuel and MP for the unlock?

There are problems facing Grenadiers but this isn't one of them.


the ability to purchase two bren/m1919a6 far out weight the benefit you listed. double lmg blob is the stuff of nightmare, there's a reason why they are limited to one on the grenadiers.
19 Aug 2016, 03:59 AM
#6
avatar of IncendiaryRounds:)

Posts: 1527

Permanently Banned
How come Grenadier weapon upgrade is better than Bar or Bren despite costing the same munitions, how come Grens can get their LMG anywhere in territory but Allies have to go back to base, how come LMG is available as soon as you get BP1 but Allies have to pay fuel and MP for the unlock?

There are problems facing Grenadiers but this isn't one of them.


This is a commonly accepted myth. On paper the LMG 42 is better then a bar but you can fire the bar on the move with is ridiculously useful for USF infantry as almost all of them perform better at medium to close range. So while the USF infantry close the distance they are able to do respectable damage when shooting their bars on the move. However, I am against dual lmgs on grens but lmg and 2 g43s is acceptable. However, this will cause problems for the balanced OST vs SOV matchup. Hence the solution would be to slightly nerf the survivability veterancy bonuses of USF, UKF, and therefore OKW infantry to be just a bit more in line with OST and Sov inf.
19 Aug 2016, 04:26 AM
#7
avatar of mortiferum

Posts: 567

How come Grenadier weapon upgrade is better than Bar or Bren despite costing the same munitions, how come Grens can get their LMG anywhere in territory but Allies have to go back to base, how come LMG is available as soon as you get BP1 but Allies have to pay fuel and MP for the unlock?

There are problems facing Grenadiers but this isn't one of them.


How come MG-42 is better? Because you can only get it on a grenadier squad. Not everyone and their mother can get a MG-42 unlike USF, UKF weapon rack.

How come Grens can get their LMG anywhere? Read above post, to limit it to grens only. If it is in the form of weapon racks, ALL units in Ost can get it. (which I dont mind :D )

How come LMG is available as soon as you get BP1? Because BP1 is expensive? Because it cost 40 fuel? Because T2 costs an additional 20 fuel and 200 MP? In terms of straight up tech cost, UKF is cheap. AT gun, etc locked behind a SINGLE 30 fuel upgrade to base HQ which means you also have an additional squad to cap? Ost needs to have an engineer BUILDING the damn thing.

--------

But yeah..... Ostheer got many problems, held together by a bunch of clutches.
19 Aug 2016, 04:39 AM
#8
avatar of A. Soldier

Posts: 3094 | Subs: 2

Here comes Katitof...
19 Aug 2016, 04:47 AM
#9
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

i think i would rather buffing the lmg when used in cover or something like that. keep in mind that cons still exist,and while penals are fantastic now, g43s and lmg42 makes grens good at all ranges and... well poor cons....
19 Aug 2016, 04:49 AM
#10
avatar of ZombiFrancis

Posts: 2742

Well you CAN get two lmg42s on each gren squad already...
19 Aug 2016, 05:14 AM
#11
avatar of easierwithaturret

Posts: 247



the ability to purchase two bren/m1919a6 far out weight the benefit you listed. double lmg blob is the stuff of nightmare, there's a reason why they are limited to one on the grenadiers.


Then that is something that should be changed with those factions.



However, I am against dual lmgs on grens but lmg and 2 g43s is acceptable. However, this will cause problems for the balanced OST vs SOV matchup. Hence the solution would be to slightly nerf the survivability veterancy bonuses of USF, UKF, and therefore OKW infantry to be just a bit more in line with OST and Sov inf.


The weakness of grens is not their lethality, it's their poor survivability under the weight of firepower they have to go up against. Returning the ability to get both upgrades is a bad idea, it might have worked at release but it won't work now. It will lead to an awkward balance situation ala penals as the squad is now effective at all ranges. It would upset the delicate balance between grens and cons, nerfing OKW as you suggested would do nothing to help cons vs grens in a 1v1 context. It would also encourage more use of tanks and indirect against grens, only now you are losing even more munitions when your squad gets wiped.

If G43s aren't being used then perhaps they need a look at to improve their viability but what OP suggested is not the way.
19 Aug 2016, 06:44 AM
#12
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 957

I don't think this would fix the problem. The gren's problem isn't low damage dealing, it's low survivability. You could have grens capable of getting 2x LMG and G43s and they'd still have trouble with dual-BAR rifle blobs and the like, simply because each loss is much more costly in terms MP, HP% loss, and DPS loss than those of rifles, tommies, etc.


That said, double-upgrading in general really needs to go. It was bad on grens, it's bad on rifles, tommies, etc.
19 Aug 2016, 07:06 AM
#13
avatar of NEVEC

Posts: 708 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Aug 2016, 01:44 AMiceman

Help me understand this... So Riflemen and British Infantry get to purchase 2 guns and can just walk up to any MG42/34 and practically waste it, but Ostheer grenadiers can only purchase/upgrade to one gun. Why can't the Ostheer go back to having the LMGs and G43 rifles at the same time?


Yeah and conscripts can't purchase any weapon upgrade besides half useless ppsh.

Stop compairing pre wfa infantry with post wfa infantry, grenaderis are way better than conscripts, would be really stupid if 240 manpower infantry would be in line with 280 mp inf that is supposed to outperform them.
19 Aug 2016, 07:08 AM
#14
avatar of United

Posts: 253

You can always count on grens to let you down. They are actually very cost effective against allied infantry w lmg, but You have to be very experienced to avoid losing them or making bad trades. I think the holy messiah change for grens would be the same thing they did with mines, the max loss of 2 models per motar shot.
19 Aug 2016, 07:10 AM
#15
avatar of United

Posts: 253

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Aug 2016, 07:06 AMNEVEC


Yeah and conscripts can't purchase any weapon upgrade besides half useless ppsh.

Stop compairing pre wfa infantry with post wfa infantry, grenaderis are way better than conscripts, would be really stupid if 240 manpower infantry would be in line with 280 mp inf that is supposed to outperform them.


Does any soviet player still use cons as main infantry? I know there are some old timers that still believe in cons, but most Soviet players have already embraced penal/guards as their lord and saviors.
19 Aug 2016, 07:17 AM
#16
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

For a durability buff+boost g43 viability ive suggested in the past to increase to price of the upgrade but make it add a model (the interrogator if it needs a reason) to make them more assault viable, as is you might as well give tommies an option for a sten..
19 Aug 2016, 07:18 AM
#17
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8

Here comes Katitof...

Why?
This horse is so dead and beaten up there is just a crater in the place it was.

Nothing will change, because that isn't how the game is balanced.
EOT and /thread really.

I second this. Allow grenadiers to be able to upgrade both if they are going to continue being the weakest mainline inf in the game


:snfPeter::snfPeter::snfPeter::snfPeter::snfPeter:
:snfPeter::snfPeter:
:snfPeter::snfPeter::snfPeter::snfPeter::snfPeter:
19 Aug 2016, 07:32 AM
#18
avatar of adamírcz

Posts: 932

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Aug 2016, 07:06 AMNEVEC


Yeah and conscripts can't purchase any weapon upgrade besides half useless ppsh.

Stop compairing pre wfa infantry with post wfa infantry, grenaderis are way better than conscripts, would be really stupid if 240 manpower infantry would be in line with 280 mp inf that is supposed to outperform them.

+1

The only thing that grens need is the same spacing as UKF tommies have
19 Aug 2016, 07:51 AM
#19
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2

It's not why Grens can have LMG and G43 (we don't want more terminators) but why Rifles and Tommies can walk with double LMGs.

Double LMGs (or 1 LMG with DPS like a double) should be possible only for elite infantry - Paras and Obers (Guards also have double LMG but their 2 LMGs are like 1 regular LMG).

Long time ago we were complaining about Grens LMG blobs how they were powerful and then Relic showed us Obers and Paras with 2x higher LMG + Rifles with double 1919 which are right know better than Paras and finally we receved double Tommies and even triple bren Royal Engis.

This game would be so much better if all infantry bar Paras/Obers get efficient DPS of 1 regular LMG.
19 Aug 2016, 08:16 AM
#20
avatar of SturmAlpha

Posts: 42

allies are allowed to walk around without getting suppressed!! but axis infantry must die asap
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