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List of unfinished changes for OKW

10 Aug 2016, 09:07 AM
#1
avatar of RiCE

Posts: 284

So recently there have been a couple of changes on OKW side. While i do not dispute the fact these were needed, i think some of them were only half-a*s nerfs. Here's a list of OKW units needs some love:

  • SPio Schreck. Giving schrecks for Spios was a bad idea on the first place. I would prefer a change where volks could keep the schreck, but a single scheck upgrade would render two member of the squad inactive. If the schreck stays for Spios, then its 90MU price is no longer reasonable. The cold package is no longer relevant, and 90MU weapon upgrade is too much for a 4 men, relatively fragile squad.

  • Raketen ATgun. If you google the word "design flaw", the image of this gun should appear. Its the worst AT gun in the game, with a bunch of useless abilities, so biased people can use those as an excuse. Retreat, cloaking, garrison. The gun has horrible aim speed. Its literally impossible to kill with it anything heavier than a light tank. Even that is debateable. Aim time must be fixed. Retreat never won any fight so far. Cloak no longer provide damage bonus but accuracy boost, which is pretty much useless when your AT can only fire once in a decade. Also the gun crew get wiped out constantly. I think it should be changed to a simple PAK40, 320MP price and locked behind teching. OKW NEEDS a reliable ATgun, and RkW is garbage.

  • ISG. The USF mortar makes this unit looks like a joke. USF mortar must be removed, or ISG rebalanced against it. Most of all, SMOKE SHELLS are needed to counter MGs, since OKW has no direct counter for reasonable price.

  • Obersoldaten. Unit has been nerfed for a while. Its a manpower sink now. The stock unit still doesnt worth 400MP, and get constantly wiped out. Decrease their price to 340MP max. 280MP riflemen already reach terminator vet by the time they first face with obers, and they cut through Obers with their LMGs, like hot knife through butter.

  • Forward Retreat. Half-a*s change again. Medics are now separated, fuel based upgrade now for this HQ. Why do we still pay 300MP for this? UKF version is 250MP.

  • FlakHQ. Please, PLEASE make it possible to switch targets, or prioritize infantries over vehicles. If a tank rolls in forward the HQ, the flak will keep firing the vehicle even if it cannot damage. Penals can walk in and throw satchels on it, because we cannot switch target. F*cked up massively.

  • Flak Half-track. No one ever built this unit since WFA were released. Tells the story...
10 Aug 2016, 09:16 AM
#2
avatar of Finndeed
Strategist Badge

Posts: 612 | Subs: 1

Considering the title this list should also include their mines. The mines still cause heavy engine damage and do not suppress infantry.
10 Aug 2016, 09:36 AM
#3
avatar of MissCommissar

Posts: 673

1. I would like to see "old OKW infantry system" back, cos it was logicaly correct and worked very fine. Stories about "volksblobs" ended right after Calliope and Mattress came. Allies got tools of punishing OKW spammers, and then that spam was removed. Looks a bit strange for me. SPio Shrecks are useless at all, because SPios with that have too much roles. Engineers, sweepers, close combat squad and now also AT squad. They should be spammable then for to perform well in all those roles.

2. Horrible aim speed may be fixed, but we shouldn't forget, that RW is ONLY AT gun in game, which is allowable in T0 - earlier than for any other faction. And you saying "retreating, cloaking, garrisoning" like it is something useless. All of those abilities are very much useful. RW is fine for OKW in their current faction design. It deals well with light vehicles, with middle, for heavy you are free to use T3 options. It's cheaper than normal AT guns, comes early, so - it is balanced. Idea of replacing it to PaK 40 is most retarded way of fixing the problem. OKW is almost like Ostheer already, no need to make them even more similar, please. OKW lost all it's uniqness as faction, and that uniqness provided very interesting gameplay. For purpouses of "competivie balance" it was ruined, and you want to ruin it more. Rethink about it, please.

3. USF mortar and LeIG... Don't you understand, that they are different type of units at all. M1 is mortar, LeIG is field gun, like PHowie. So, it performs like PHowie - longer range of fire, able to damage vehicles, with good luck - able to wipe squads too. But PHowie is better, you could say, but it comes way later than LeIG, costs more and it's... less mobile maybe. In any case, LeIG is fine, I explained it somewhere else already. No need to add smoke, no need to fix it, like they tried by adding suppression. LeIG is able to counter HMGs by normal fire, without smoke. It sounds like a joke at CoH 2 org now, but I would say, that it is L2P issue.

4. Obersoldaten is 4men sniper squad actually. Their accuracy is close to 100% even on move, they equiped with pretty powerful abilities (like traping points, which is doctrinal for USSR, for example) and they are in general - high quality elite squad, non-doctrinal one. That's why they cost 400 MP - they perform right like they cost 400 MP. Saying that "Riflmen costs lesser, but perform same" is ridiculous. For to perform same you should invest in them >120 ammo in each squad, with weapons. And that is pretty big investment. Besides, it's part of USF design - infantry over vehicles. Their tank park and vehicles in general are weaker, than tank park of all other factions, even their heavy is glass cannon. So, it compensates with versile and powerful infantry. So, please, stop your constant whines about "Riflemen too powerful, OPOP!" (not personally to you, but to everyone who whines about it). It is design issue, it is balanced with USF faction design. So, Obers are also fine.

5. FRP costs too much if we also add 100 MP for medics, I agree. I would actually remove those upgrades for medics and repairteams and make it back as it was. I suggested myself that few years ago, but... times changed, now OKW is hardly redesigned, so... there is no need to have such upgrades on track HQs now. If those upgrades will be removed - let it cost 300 MP as it is. If they won't be removed, then would be sweet to have 100 MP discount on FRP upgrade, cos it all steals just too much MP from you, you can start to lose in midgame with that, cos you won't be able to buy more units.

6. FlakHQ is "anti-everything" gun. Infantry, tanks, vehicles, airtargets... and has incredibly large range. I would say - no need to touch it at all. Let it have auto-targeting, that opponents would at least have chanses to beat it with only infantry or something like that. It's same as bunkers can't be aimed, it's fine, it's balancing issue.

7. Don't agree, see it pretty often. Of course, it is easy counterable, so investments of 55 fuel in such units looks questionable. I would maybe make it cheaper, for to make more attractive. But... right after that will be needed to make cheaper USF M15AA and maybe M5 truck. In any case - Flak HT is pretty useless unit, but I see no way, how to make it both useful and balanced, not OP. It will require work with all factions then.

No more points you have, I hope :D
10 Aug 2016, 09:36 AM
#4
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17562 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Aug 2016, 09:07 AMRiCE
Raketen ATgun. If you google the word "design flaw", the image of this gun should appear. Its the worst AT gun in the game, with a bunch of useless abilities, so biased people can use those as an excuse. Retreat, cloaking, garrison. The gun has horrible aim speed. Its literally impossible to kill with it anything heavier than a light tank. Even that is debateable. Aim time must be fixed. Retreat never won any fight so far. Cloak no longer provide damage bonus but accuracy boost, which is pretty much useless when your AT can only fire once in a decade. Also the gun crew get wiped out constantly. I think it should be changed to a simple PAK40, 320MP price and locked behind teching. OKW NEEDS a reliable ATgun, and RkW is garbage.

I suppose you don't even remember M-42 exists.
Use camo on raketen and don't treat it like frontline squad, have volks nearby to faust and you'll see a world of difference.

Forward Retreat. Half-a*s change again. Medics are now separated, fuel based upgrade now for this HQ. Why do we still pay 300MP for this? UKF version is 250MP.

UKF version also requires 200mp to be put first and can be killed with small arms.
But that's inconvenient fact for you so better ignore it, right?

FlakHQ. Please, PLEASE make it possible to switch targets, or prioritize infantries over vehicles. If a tank rolls in forward the HQ, the flak will keep firing the vehicle even if it cannot damage. Penals can walk in and throw satchels on it, because we cannot switch target. F*cked up massively.

Its a tier, not a unit.
You want to be able to control it? Give it a pop cost.

Flak Half-track. No one ever built this unit since WFA were released. Tells the story...
Except for one of the best players in game(Hans) that is? Though you don't need to be on his level to be successful with it-harder to use doesn't mean underpowered.
10 Aug 2016, 09:37 AM
#5
avatar of A. Soldier

Posts: 3090 | Subs: 2

Sturmpioneers get 2 shrecks or a new 5 man squad that's around 260-270/280 man power that can upgrade to double shrecks (Panzerjagers) seems reasonable for me, really shrecks on Sturms are a really large waste right now with the Raketen being ineffective as many people have already mentioned.

ISG needs smoke and a buff.

Does anybody even still make Obers?

The HQ Flak truck I think still damages tanks, albeit slower than it would infantry.

The British Forward Assembly is actually 250 man power, no idea why, the Forward Retreat point upgrade is 200 so yeah, it doesn't make sense since the OKW Med HQ is 200 man power and 15 fuel, couple that with 300 man power for the retreat point and 150 for the medics along with 15 fuel it's a hell of a resource sink and waste if the enemy find it since it's static unlike the British HQ trucks from the first game which can just pack up and move.

Flak HT is useless and is the reason the MG34 was added by the default, because with the removal of the suppression from the Kubel, they lacked a proper suppression platform.

Speaking of the MG34, it needs to be Tier 0, period.
10 Aug 2016, 09:38 AM
#6
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17562 | Subs: 8


Speaking of the MG34, it needs to be Tier 0, period.

Because OKW being 90% ost copy is unacceptable!
It needs to be reskinned ost in 100% :snfBarton:
10 Aug 2016, 09:42 AM
#7
avatar of A. Soldier

Posts: 3090 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Aug 2016, 09:38 AMKatitof

Because OKW being 90% ost copy is unacceptable!
It needs to be reskinned ost in 100% :snfBarton:


You got a better idea? Kubel has no suppression, Flak HF is shit, what else does the OKW have that deals suppression (except for the HQ Flak) that also comes in early game and is mobile?

This isn't some fanboyism from my side, we're talking about a key element of an Army.

Plus it's not my problem Relic designed them like this, the PE provided enough variety in a German Army in CoH with their vehicles, I still have no problem using the 250 Half-track there with my PGs as an effective suppression platform.

Especially the mortar HF, I love that thing with it's flame rounds.

Edit: Not to mention that the MG34 is shit compared to the MG42 while it shouldn't be so but whatever it takes for ASS-ymetrical balance.
10 Aug 2016, 09:51 AM
#8
avatar of MissCommissar

Posts: 673



You got a better idea? Kubel has no suppression, Flak HF is shit, what else does the OKW have that deals suppression (except for the HQ Flak) that also comes in early game and is mobile?

This isn't some fanboyism from my side, we're talking about a key element of an Army.

Plus it's not my problem Relic designed them like this, the PE provided enough variety in a German Army in CoH with their vehicles, I still have no problem using the 250 Half-track there with my PGs as an effective suppression platform.

Especially the mortar HF, I love that thing with it's flame rounds.

Edit: Not to mention that the MG34 is shit compared to the MG42 while it shouldn't be so but whatever it takes for ASS-ymetrical balance.


Lol, OKW lived long without non-doc HMG, and now it is somehow "essential part of army". I would say, that non-doc weapons for core infantry are also important and essential part of army, but that reason didn't casue adding those weapons to USSR, somehow... Such as it won't cause adding really powerful infantry to Ostheer, cos it's part of their faction design, etc...

It's not fanboysm, but it's just misunderstanding of factions deisgn and balance issues. OKW had richiest with combat-reliable units T0 in game! 2 types of combat infantry, light spammable car, which in big numbers can be very annyoing and AT gun, exclusevly for OKW. Ain't it much enough, for to add there also MG-34?

Besides, as Katitof said - such changes sooner or later going to totaly ruin OKW's faction uniqe design and turn them into Ostheer 2.0. I wouldn't like to see that at all, Relic should use other ways of balancing, not copy-pasting ideas from one faction in game to another.

10 Aug 2016, 09:52 AM
#9
avatar of CartoonVillain

Posts: 459

1. SPio Schreck. Not sure I agree with this. Schreks are far superior to bazookas and should cost more. 90 seems fair to me.

2. Raketen AT gun. Totally agreed, it's a piece of shit and needs to go. Soo many pointless gimmicks but fails to deliver actual damage. Just give OKW a normal AT gun like everyone else gets. It's also easier to balance since you don't have to consider so many parameters.

3. ISG. Agreed, smoke rounds are sorely needed.

4. Obersoldaten. Don't know how I feel about them. 400mp seems a bit too much considering their performance, on the other hand OKW are regularly floating manpower at that stage so I dunno.

5. Forward Retreat. Less relevant in 1v1, so I don't have an opinion on the cost.

6. FlakHQ. You get it for free so I can't really complain here.

7. Flak Half-track. This thing is so trash it can be killed by a Maxim crew with their rifles if you try to flank the Maxim. An armour or HP buff is required.
10 Aug 2016, 09:56 AM
#10
avatar of CartoonVillain

Posts: 459



Lol, OKW lived long without non-doc HMG, and now it is somehow "essential part of army".



Yes and no. Before the MG34 was made non-doctrinal Luftwaffe Ground Forces was a no brainer pick and in that case the MG34 came at 1cp and off-map so you could get one way sooner than you can now.

I think the old design was actually better than the current one, because you could get an MG34 early if needed, or not at all. Now your only choice is to get it late.
10 Aug 2016, 10:05 AM
#11
avatar of MissCommissar

Posts: 673



Yes and no. Before the MG34 was made non-doctrinal Luftwaffe Ground Forces was a no brainer pick and in that case the MG34 came at 1cp and off-map so you could get one way sooner than you can now.

I think the old design was actually better than the current one, because you could get an MG34 early if needed, or not at all. Now your only choice is to get it late.


Personally I didn't use it before and don't use it now at all. OKW was and still is faction, which can actually survive without such supression platforms. They have pretty powerful infantry start, maybe even more powerful than UKF have. They obviously have weak early game, since they can't get early HMGs or Mortars, but that is again - design issue, there is nothing wrong at all, that OKW suck in early to USSR, to USF, to whoever else... OKW's main power concentrated in late, mostly at one unit - KT.

So, I just don't understand that idea of people, that "OKW MUST(!) have HMG, cos each faction must have supression platform". Again, I can use that logic and ask for non-doc DP-28s and PTRSs for Concsripts then, cos non-doc infantry weapons, which have all 4 factions, except USSR, are also very important for factions gameplay, specially when you build it around infantry, not vehciles.

And if someone thinks, that MG-34 is shit - think about it again. It was and is cheapest HMG in game, it has wide arc of fire, large AoE supression field. It is 100% copy of MG-42, with just lesser stats of damage and supression, but with better accuracy. And again - way lesser price. So - be happy about you have. Same USSR has to fuck with Maxims, spending helluva micro for to control it in defesive gameplay, when you need manually turn (not just press right button) it at each target, which trying to flank it.
10 Aug 2016, 10:07 AM
#12
avatar of CartoonVillain

Posts: 459



Personally I didn't use it before and don't use it now at all. OKW was and still is faction, which can actually survive without such supression platforms.


I don't think the MG34 is required for OKW. Like I said, I liked it better before when you could get one early or not at all.
10 Aug 2016, 10:09 AM
#13
avatar of RiCE

Posts: 284

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Aug 2016, 09:36 AMKatitof

I suppose you don't even remember M-42 exists.
Use camo on raketen and don't treat it like frontline squad, have volks nearby to faust and you'll see a world of difference.

In case you missed the topic, its about OKW not the soviets. Since when does one underperforming unit makes another one legally broken. Btw Soviets got a reliable ATgun already, not to mention their TDs. Having an extra underperforming doctrinal ATgun i wouldnt call an urgent issue. OKW dont have proper ATgun, and its aim time is OBVIOUSLY messed up.


UKF version also requires 200mp to be put first and can be killed with small arms.
But that's inconvenient fact for you so better ignore it, right?

Have you ever played OKW? you need the sWS truck (100MP/15FU), you need to convert it (200MP/25FU), and the forward retreat is 300MP. That sums up to 600MP and 40FU and it still cannot heal.


Its a tier, not a unit.
You want to be able to control it? Give it a pop cost.

Popcost for what? you think someone will spam flakHQ? Target prioritization is so basic and mandatory as hold fire during cloak mode. Right now the little truck keeps firing at vehicles it cannot penetrate, while an army of infantries are building campfire next to it. The little truck is broken... clear?!


Except for one of the best players in game(Hans) that is? Though you don't need to be on his level to be successful with it-harder to use doesn't mean underpowered.

One of the worst players build that too..


Btw, you just elevated the word "biased" to a whole new level.
10 Aug 2016, 12:24 PM
#14
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474

Considering the title this list should also include their mines. The mines still cause heavy engine damage and do not suppress infantry.
all mines are like that
10 Aug 2016, 12:26 PM
#15
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Aug 2016, 09:36 AMKatitof

I suppose you don't even remember M-42 exists.
Use camo on raketen and don't treat it like frontline squad, have volks nearby to faust and you'll see a world of difference.


UKF version also requires 200mp to be put first and can be killed with small arms.
But that's inconvenient fact for you so better ignore it, right?


Its a tier, not a unit.
You want to be able to control it? Give it a pop cost.

Except for one of the best players in game(Hans) that is? Though you don't need to be on his level to be successful with it-harder to use doesn't mean underpowered.
I see as always you can just point out the flaws of other and never give your opinion bantiof
Mind telling us what you think of other point ?
10 Aug 2016, 12:30 PM
#16
avatar of NEVEC

Posts: 708 | Subs: 1

Compairing leig and usf mortar is kind of weird.
10 Aug 2016, 12:36 PM
#17
avatar of Domine

Posts: 500

M-42 is now no longer underpowered because some top-tier players have used it! Rejoice!
10 Aug 2016, 12:48 PM
#18
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17562 | Subs: 8

I see as always you can just point out the flaws of other and never give your opinion bantiof
Mind telling us what you think of other point ?

Spio and ISG?

Just because US mortar overshadows ISG does not mean ISG is up-pair of them is a hell to fight against-play allies sometime and you'll see that.
I've said plenty of times what I'd do to US mortar already so look it up in one of the mortar threads.

Spios, indifferent, if you try to rely on spio spam for AT, you can't play OKW anyway and singular shreck does not tax factions muni capacity in any way that would excuse lowering the cost. Its light vehicle deterrent and support against med and nothing more, you have oh so bad puppchens(seriously, LEARN to use camo) and volk fausts.
10 Aug 2016, 12:54 PM
#19
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Aug 2016, 12:48 PMKatitof

Spio and ISG?

Just because US mortar overshadows ISG does not mean ISG is up-pair of them is a hell to fight against-play allies sometime and you'll see that.
I've said plenty of times what I'd do to US mortar already so look it up in one of the mortar threads.

Spios, indifferent, if you try to rely on spio spam for AT, you can't play OKW anyway and singular shreck does not tax factions muni capacity in any way that would excuse lowering the cost. Its light vehicle deterrent and support against med and nothing more, you have oh so bad puppchens(seriously, LEARN to use camo) and volk fausts.
well i wouldn't mind smoke but only 80 aa range for isg (and mortar pit)
and for SP 60 for shreck seems fair but please let them get sweeper too
10 Aug 2016, 12:55 PM
#20
avatar of Grittle

Posts: 177

If you want the MG34 earlier, make it so you can build it after you build your 1st Truck and not 1st HQ

makes it earlier by 1-2 minutes at most. and still makes it non-ostheer yet still ostheer.
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