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russian armor

Make Ostheer lategame great again!

15 Jul 2016, 15:56 PM
#81
avatar of sinthe

Posts: 414



Yes, that's why I suggested minor buffs to t3 units. I also don't believe you'd be having problems dealing with US tanks if you hold both fuels. When discussing OH t3 people tend to overlook the Stug and forget just how good it is for the price, especially if you can get some vet on it. That's another reason I suggest a slight buff to the Ostwind, so the Stug can be used to its full potential in the AT role.

It's true that the game has been moving away from axis lategame dominance, but that's a good thing - the whole 'X faction must win in 15 minutes, Y faction must stall to late game' mechanic isn't satisfying and makes it impossible to balance both large and small matches. Of course if a faction is losing their advantage at one point of the game then we need to look at other stages (in this case the mid game) to make up for that.


How do stugs hold up against blobs? Oh yes instant death.

The issue is the same thing people were complaining about with okw. At any point in the game allies will have a far greater amount of better quality AT. Combined with the fact that their tanks are more cost efficient across the board.

Pre patch as okw, my squad composition was 3 volks with schrecks, 2 racketen and maybe a puma. Now, it's one SP and 2 racketens and a puma. I went from fielding 6 at sources of AT to 4. 3 of which have to be retreated if they are targeted because they are so soft and prone to dieing and wipes.

Same thing for the OH AT. I generally don't get my first AT unit until the 7 minute mark. I have to use rushed 222 and fausts to deal with light vehicles and scaling into late game every usf and ukf unit can field 2 decent hand held AT.

Both okw and OH have no real solution to deal with infantry using infantry because the allies get the best cqc units and the cqc units axis has are squishy as hell.
15 Jul 2016, 18:02 PM
#82
avatar of ZombiFrancis

Posts: 2742

Protip: Axis don't actually have cqc units.

Virtually any unit Axis has that excels at close range does comparably better at medium range against the power and size of allied squads.
15 Jul 2016, 18:16 PM
#83
avatar of sinthe

Posts: 414

Protip: Axis don't actually have cqc units.

Virtually any unit Axis has that excels at close range does comparably better at medium range against the power and size of allied squads.


Exactly. But the MP40 as a weapon is almost as good as the ppsh42 (I've shot both) and axis units with MP40 should perform a bit better at close range.
15 Jul 2016, 18:24 PM
#84
avatar of Vuther
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3103 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Jul 2016, 18:16 PMsinthe


Exactly. But the MP40 as a weapon is almost as good as the ppsh42 (I've shot both) and axis units with MP40 should perform a bit better at close range.

If it was about as good why didn't the Germans make 5 million more of them? :snfAmi: (not a serious response)
15 Jul 2016, 19:12 PM
#85
avatar of sinthe

Posts: 414

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Jul 2016, 18:24 PMVuther

If it was about as good why didn't the Germans make 5 million more of them? :snfAmi: (not a serious response)


Look at the production start date and compare it to the years they started having issues with acquiring materials. And they still made 1.1 million vs the StG44's 5000.
15 Jul 2016, 19:29 PM
#86
avatar of RealName

Posts: 276

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Jul 2016, 19:12 PMsinthe
And they still made 1.1 million vs the StG44's 5000.


wut. 420,000 stgs were built by germany. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StG_44
15 Jul 2016, 19:55 PM
#87
avatar of sinthe

Posts: 414



wut. 420,000 stgs were built by germany. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StG_44

Missed 2 0's :p
16 Jul 2016, 02:34 AM
#88
avatar of easierwithaturret

Posts: 247

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Jul 2016, 15:56 PMsinthe


How do stugs hold up against blobs? Oh yes instant death.

The issue is the same thing people were complaining about with okw. At any point in the game allies will have a far greater amount of better quality AT. Combined with the fact that their tanks are more cost efficient across the board.

Both okw and OH have no real solution to deal with infantry using infantry because the allies get the best cqc units and the cqc units axis has are squishy as hell.


I never said the Stug was a blob counter, I said the ostwind should get a buff to help counter blobs, thus better enabling the stug to play its part in OH's AT arsenal.

It's fine that OH has to make do with pak, fausts, 222 and other soft AT in the early-mid game. You can't have hard counters to light tanks available before the light tanks themselves, otherwise that would invalidate the whole mid game. It's also just straight up wrong to say that allies have better quality AT. Greater quantity, better value perhaps. The big problem with axis armour right now is not the vehicles themselves, it's that infantry can't support them properly under the barrage of indirect and blobs.

I feel like the whole OH discourse is getting very confused with mutliple issues being debated across numerous threads, so I'm done with it for now. All I'll say is we as a community need to move away from simplistic comparisions between similar units and instead take a more holistic approach that acknowledges the numerous components to any balance problem.
16 Jul 2016, 02:39 AM
#89
avatar of GenObi

Posts: 522

Wer is fine, next
16 Jul 2016, 02:41 AM
#90
avatar of Gbpirate
Senior Editor Badge

Posts: 981

Oh my gosh, just read OP and only OP and I can say that it's an l2p issue.

You don't go in with your panther and try to hit the rear armor. You don't need to. "panther is underpowered" lolololol.
I remember when it was 1k HP...
16 Jul 2016, 07:42 AM
#91
avatar of Slyzor

Posts: 51

I think P4 should be also redesigned. While Cromwell has high speed, good moving accuracy and free blitz, Sherman has good moving accuracy, crew, HE shells and smoke nades Panzer 4 has nothing and it costs more. It's not like it has better stats too.
16 Jul 2016, 07:48 AM
#92
avatar of NEVEC

Posts: 708 | Subs: 1

Maphack car, elephant + divebomb isn't great enough?
16 Jul 2016, 16:49 PM
#93
avatar of austerlitz

Posts: 1705

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Jul 2016, 07:48 AMNEVEC
Maphack car, elephant + divebomb isn't great enough?


No.
16 Jul 2016, 17:37 PM
#94
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Jul 2016, 07:48 AMNEVEC
Maphack car, elephant + divebomb isn't great enough?


No need for Ele.

Just any vehicle with Scope + double Pak40 with vet 1 and you can take out any vehicle without any chances to survive :megusta:

(Well, Churchill can survive I guess).
16 Jul 2016, 18:20 PM
#95
avatar of Thunderhun

Posts: 1593



No need for Ele.

Just any vehicle with Scope + double Pak40 with vet 1 and you can take out any vehicle without any chances to survive :megusta:

(Well, Churchill can survive I guess).


No need for skill.

Just mark any vehicle with Marked Target and yolorush with the cheapest vehicles and destroy havies.

:hansGG::hansREKT:
16 Jul 2016, 18:55 PM
#96
avatar of sinthe

Posts: 414



I never said the Stug was a blob counter, I said the ostwind should get a buff to help counter blobs, thus better enabling the stug to play its part in OH's AT arsenal.


How do you use a stug then in an enviroment where your tankhunter can be lost to core infantry in a blink of an eye?

It's fine that OH has to make do with pak, fausts, 222 and other soft AT in the early-mid game. You can't have hard counters to light tanks available before the light tanks themselves, otherwise that would invalidate the whole mid game. It's also just straight up wrong to say that allies have better quality AT. Greater quantity, better value perhaps. The big problem with axis armour right now is not the vehicles themselves, it's that infantry can't support them properly under the barrage of indirect and blobs.


But that's how the AT blobs are working for USF/UKF. I get my first P4 out and all of a sudden there are 4 squads with bazookas. Unless I have smoke 4 zook squads make quick work of a P4.

I feel like the whole OH discourse is getting very confused with mutliple issues being debated across numerous threads, so I'm done with it for now. All I'll say is we as a community need to move away from simplistic comparisions between similar units and instead take a more holistic approach that acknowledges the numerous components to any balance problem.


There needs to be a balance philosiphy based on valueing utility. Shermans and cromwells, better utility and cost less. Comet vs Panther, comet has better utility and a cheaper cost and yet a comet can 1v1 a panther. Zook blobs are insanely cost efficient,they deal with everything because they have better stats, 2 slots, awesome gernades, smoke, snare and rack weapons.

It's terribly frustrating when your out microing a player and still losing to the units.
16 Jul 2016, 19:35 PM
#97
avatar of NEVEC

Posts: 708 | Subs: 1



No need for skill.

Just mark any vehicle with Marked Target and yolorush with the cheapest vehicles and destroy havies.

:hansGG::hansREKT:


Well, if your opponent in coma, noob or leaves heavy tanks alone without support than yes, this strategy will be sucessfull. But if your opponent has a little bit of brains you will waste all of your t34's with 0 result.
16 Jul 2016, 19:35 PM
#98
avatar of zerocoh

Posts: 918

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Jul 2016, 02:39 AMGenObi
Wer is fine, next


this, jesus christ at the people on this forum, Buffs to wehr T4? The strongest tier in the game?

everything on T4 just make short work of infantry (even panthers for some reason...) and the new brumbarr is just insane, they wipe everything while still having great armor, and they even damage T34s and shermans.

and don't even get me started on panzerwerfers...
16 Jul 2016, 19:36 PM
#99
avatar of Zyllen

Posts: 733

The ostheer is definitely suffering from the powercreep.

a 5th man for the grens would be nice as well as bringing the popcap inline with the rest of the infantry units. the days of gren spam are long over.

the p4 could use a price decrease or a penetration increase.
the ostiwind could also use a buff in either its pricing or its scatter.

And the panther could use a dps (perhaps mirror the dps with the comet?) buff. The day it could soak an unbelievable amount of damage are long with the allied medium AT capable of puncturing the axis heavies.
16 Jul 2016, 20:16 PM
#100
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2



No need for skill.

Just mark any vehicle with Marked Target and yolorush with the cheapest vehicles and destroy havies.

:hansGG::hansREKT:


Well, markt target and yolo will probably end up with losing your armor too. Not to mention waring by mark target.

With scope and double vet 1 pak you enemy won't even know you are coming and once he realizes, it's too late.
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