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Make Ostheer lategame great again!

10 Jul 2016, 16:07 PM
#41
avatar of What Doth Life?!
Patrion 27

Posts: 1664

I don't understand why UKF infantry spaces out quickly and logically while every other faction crams 4-5 models into 1 pixel.
10 Jul 2016, 17:25 PM
#42
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2



Wasn't declection damage removed on all tanks? Tiger etc? Especially the stun from deflection was removed.


Stun was removed from those tanks.
Unless coh2stats hasn't been updated ISU HE/Piercing shot, Brummbar and if we can consider it a "tank" Churchill AVRE and Sturmtiger* still have deflection dmg.

*In the case of the ST it doesn't matter since it has 1000pen, this is not the case for the AVRE.
10 Jul 2016, 17:29 PM
#43
avatar of Butcher

Posts: 1201

Like any other expensive Heavy tank in the entire freaking game, what do you want, some unrealistic and unproportional heavy tank advantage?

Eitherway the moral of the story is that i do not think that any heavy tank should be able to just sit infront of masses of at guns and tank destroyers and just shrug off all the shots.
The IS-2 and KT can take hits from anything but the dedicated tank destroyers. The Churchill variants can take shots with their HP. The Tiger on the other hand - while lacking the HP pool of the Churchills - is more reliably penetrated by what I would call "middle class AT" (Easy 8, T-34/85, lend lease Shermans, Comet, M10, on shorter ranges even by the Cromwell). These vehicles all struggle with the KT and will seriously threaten a Tiger from the front. Two will easily finish it. I´m just asking for a bit more frontal armor to reduce the chance of frontal penetrations. Currently that happens quite often. 30 or so points to the frontal armor is totally adequate.

Also you still haven´t told me what the Panther is good for when StuGs totally out-dps it. Iirc the StuG reload is 4 seconds, the Panthers reload is 6.25 seconds. For a 640 HP T-34 the Stug will need 16 seconds, while the Panther will need 25 seconds. With the ready aim time and other factors this might differ but only marginally so.
10 Jul 2016, 17:33 PM
#44
avatar of LeStrigoi

Posts: 30

I don't understand why UKF infantry spaces out quickly and logically while every other faction crams 4-5 models into 1 pixel.



Yeah that's what I can't understand. Or just compare combat engineers and Fallschirmjaeger...
10 Jul 2016, 17:41 PM
#45
avatar of comm_ash
Patrion 14

Posts: 1191 | Subs: 1

I can see Grens and pgrens getting 82 hp models to reduce the likelihood of wipes, but such a change would also end up changing the amount of hits it takes to kill said models, potentially messing up balance. It would require relic to look at every infantry weapon in the game and rescale the damage values and other modifiers to keep the same kill time.

That being said, I don really think such a change is needed. Yes, ostheer infantry gets one shotted more often than the infantry of other factions, but the biggest culprit was mines. Now that mines no longer destroy squads in oneshot, the biggest culprits are mortars and other indirect fire, which can be dodged with movement.

In my honest opinion, all ostheer really needs is a 251 buff to make it even if not better than the m5 durability wise, to reflect ostheer's reliance on support weapons. Every other issue can be attributed to other units needing nerfs (ie. Us mortar overperforming).
10 Jul 2016, 17:43 PM
#46
avatar of Grittle

Posts: 177

Here are my suggested changes for the glorius Ostheer (and OKW because I hate myself)

-Grenadier Health increased from 80 to 82
All these suggestions for a 5th man are asinine at best. it would make it it Volksgrenadier: East Edition. BUT, Grenadiers do needs some more durability, so giving them the same treatment the snipers got would hopefully reduce full health wipes WITHOUT wiping away uniqueness.

-Ostwind Offensive Buff
plz gib buff. only other AA gun that's worse at AI is the OKW flak emplacement, but atleast you can also build trenches with that ability....

-Pgren Vet 1 Medkit Ability replaced with Stormtrooper Tactical Movement at Vet 1
Would provide a more offensive solution to some situations and incentive not to blatantly upgrade all pgrens with shrecks when the enemy is spamming infantry....

-Osttruppen Vet 1 Medkit ability replaced with Model 22 Grenade at Vet 1
Provides early game anti-garrison when rushing Prosttruppen (if kept alive), and a buff without affecting any of its stats.

-Make Panther the same as OKW Panther stat-wise
Why are they different in the first place? aside from costs (Because OKW can tech to panther faster, understandable) but the OKW Panther is far superior to Ost Panther in terms of accuracy and other small yet noticeable differences.

-Flam Hezter faster vet and lower CP by 1
just do it plz

-Make MG-34 unlock with 1st truck bought and not 1st HQ deployed
Needs to come earlier, but not MG42 early.

-Obers HP increased from 80 to 82
400 Manpower 4 squad units need a wee bit more durability.

-Flak Emplacements projectiles need to go through ground
I can't think of any other alternative that doesn't involve a massive rework at the moment.
10 Jul 2016, 18:13 PM
#47
avatar of Mirdarion

Posts: 283




I don't know. I find OS and UKF play style very similar, at least at the beginning.


That is exactly the point. What I was writing about wasn't the playstyle, but the reactive ability of the faction - which is exactly where Ostheer and Brits start to go their own ways. Brits have the capability of outplaying an opponent and then force the terms of a battle, Ostheer does not. Ostheer is constantly reacting, instead of acting. All you can do is trying to play the firefighter, while your opponent is a fire-loving maniac with a flamethrower.

Ironically, this doesn't show as much in the Brit/Ostheer match-up as it does in the USF/Ostheer one. Interestingly, even with all the buffs the Soviets got, they still don't outperform the Ostheer as much as the other two though, which says quite a bit about their faction design as they behaved correctly against the Ostheer even before the patch.

The problem here is that this balance problem is less one of specific units (simply buffing the Pansy IV and Grens won't make those problems go away), but a problem of the basic faction design of the Ostheer. Which is why I think it will never be corrected, as Relic has openly shown that they don't care enough about the old factions to adjust them to the game in its current state, unless they can do it in a few simple +/- adjustments of unit stats...
10 Jul 2016, 18:23 PM
#48
avatar of Beinhard

Posts: 161

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Jul 2016, 17:29 PMButcher
The IS-2 and KT can take hits from anything but the dedicated tank destroyers. The Churchill variants can take shots with their HP. The Tiger on the other hand - while lacking the HP pool of the Churchills - is more reliably penetrated by what I would call "middle class AT" (Easy 8, T-34/85, lend lease Shermans, Comet, M10, on shorter ranges even by the Cromwell). These vehicles all struggle with the KT and will seriously threaten a Tiger from the front. Two will easily finish it. I´m just asking for a bit more frontal armor to reduce the chance of frontal penetrations. Currently that happens quite often. 30 or so points to the frontal armor is totally adequate.

Also you still haven´t told me what the Panther is good for when StuGs totally out-dps it. Iirc the StuG reload is 4 seconds, the Panthers reload is 6.25 seconds. For a 640 HP T-34 the Stug will need 16 seconds, while the Panther will need 25 seconds. With the ready aim time and other factors this might differ but only marginally so.


The Tiger 1 should get penned frontally 10/10 times by all these "Middle class AT tanks" you listed...
10 Jul 2016, 18:36 PM
#49
avatar of Zansibar

Posts: 158 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Jul 2016, 17:29 PMButcher
The IS-2 and KT can take hits from anything but the dedicated tank destroyers. The Churchill variants can take shots with their HP. The Tiger on the other hand - while lacking the HP pool of the Churchills - is more reliably penetrated by what I would call "middle class AT" (Easy 8, T-34/85, lend lease Shermans, Comet, M10, on shorter ranges even by the Cromwell). These vehicles all struggle with the KT and will seriously threaten a Tiger from the front. Two will easily finish it. I´m just asking for a bit more frontal armor to reduce the chance of frontal penetrations. Currently that happens quite often. 30 or so points to the frontal armor is totally adequate.

Also you still haven´t told me what the Panther is good for when StuGs totally out-dps it. Iirc the StuG reload is 4 seconds, the Panthers reload is 6.25 seconds. For a 640 HP T-34 the Stug will need 16 seconds, while the Panther will need 25 seconds. With the ready aim time and other factors this might differ but only marginally so.


If thats the case than id like to see the M26 buffed in the very same way as well including HP.

And what the Panther is good for is being a glorified TD with a turret and nice speed, there is few mediums in game that can actually duel with it. Its been meta since release and continues to be to this day, just because its so good at shutting down any allied medium tank and especially the cheapo ones at that. Meanwhile a Stug is really not that hard to kill with any medium in the game.

Getting a Panther kinda makes the purchase of a cromwell or a standard M4 a shot in the foot for the allied player.
10 Jul 2016, 18:49 PM
#50
avatar of Bohewulf

Posts: 82

... Ost is still one of the greatest and most rewarding factions to play, if you can micro them and react to your enemies kappa.

...



You mean Ostheer is only ok if you can micro them? So this means the other factions are ok even without micro? Isnt this alone a great sign of unbalance?
10 Jul 2016, 22:10 PM
#51
avatar of Firesparks

Posts: 1930


The Wehr are suffering a lot more early game tha the OKW right now due to the shitty survivability of their mainline infantry if not again for their othet 2 infantry units, those being the pioneers and PGs. And late game due to their underperforming armor compared to all other Armies.

So the most logical step is to buff them, if you don't agree with that then suggest something else but don't bash our opinions just because you think yours is superior or something, if half the forum is suggesting a certain buff then it's up for debate and testing, not being bashed by some new comer modder that thinks he has some people here's experience and knowledge of how the game works.



there are other ways of buffing the wehr without giving them a fifth man, which would destroy their identity. Better squad spacing and better received accuracy are two examples.

and the problem is the power creep on the USF and mortars in generals.

and I've already made my suggestions here:

https://www.coh2.org/topic/51037/firesparks-balance-mod

and let's not get into a pissing contest about who's been playing the game longer.

and regarding tiger:
It's a victim of the introduction of the King Tiger. The King tiger is significantly better armed and armored while the difference in speed isn't that great. The allied TD are tuned to counter King tiger but it leave the tiger in the dust. Tiger is bit a faster but not fast enough to make a difference.

Either the Tiger get buffed into a King Tiger clone or the Tiger get a mobility buff to differentiate it from the King Tiger.
10 Jul 2016, 22:26 PM
#52
avatar of Hans G. Schultz

Posts: 875 | Subs: 2





stop trying give grenadier a fifth man

first of all this is getting dangerously close to homogenizing the different factions. four men squad is part of the wehr's identity

allies are overpowered atm, but the solution isn't to buff the wehr. This is how powercreep happens.

and frankly, a USF dual m1919a6 vet3 blob is still going to roll over a five men grenadier.

+1

Just want to add that I also believe four-man squads are part of the Ostheer's identity and that increasing the squad size to five risks homogenization.

+1


Quite frankly Firesparks you need to stop bashing everyone else's opinion and think yours is the correct one, and stop with the asymmetrical balance excuse bullshif if you haven't figured it out until now it does not work.

-1 gtfo

10 Jul 2016, 22:58 PM
#53
avatar of A. Soldier

Posts: 3094 | Subs: 2




there are other ways of buffing the wehr without giving them a fifth man, which would destroy their identity. Better squad spacing and better received accuracy are two examples.

and the problem is the power creep on the USF and mortars in generals.

and I've already made my suggestions here:

https://www.coh2.org/topic/51037/firesparks-balance-mod

and let's not get into a pissing contest about who's been playing the game longer.

and regarding tiger:
It's a victim of the introduction of the King Tiger. The King tiger is significantly better armed and armored while the difference in speed isn't that great. The allied TD are tuned to counter King tiger but it leave the tiger in the dust. Tiger is bit a faster but not fast enough to make a difference.

Either the Tiger get buffed into a King Tiger clone or the Tiger get a mobility buff to differentiate it from the King Tiger.


If there are then suggest them here because most people like me are lazy to view your topic but I'm well aware of your mod.

And I'm not arguing about your time played I'm arguing about your time modding.

And yes, I agree with your points about the Tiger.

Edit:


+1


+1


-1 gtfo



Karbinder careful because I'm one of the few people that supports your Panzer Jaeger idea, besides we're on the same side here no need to be hostile, you're either trolling or playing dumb if you don't realize that the Wehr's infantry are suffering from their low numbers which I agree started happening after the Western Front Armies were added with a hell of a lot more AoE units and abilities.
11 Jul 2016, 01:01 AM
#54
avatar of Outsider_Sidaroth

Posts: 1323 | Subs: 1



If thats the case than id like to see the M26 buffed in the very same way as well including HP.


Yes plz, 300 Armor like the Tiger, yet much less Health.
11 Jul 2016, 14:31 PM
#55
avatar of Beinhard

Posts: 161



You mean Ostheer is only ok if you can micro them? So this means the other factions are ok even without micro? Isnt this alone a great sign of unbalance?


Implying that the other factions doesnt require micro to play well?...

Ost is pretty much the best well rounded designed faction, and highly rewards great micro, and the faction itself has a wonderfull synergy between the units in each tier.

11 Jul 2016, 14:42 PM
#56
avatar of Superhet

Posts: 132

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Jul 2016, 17:29 PMButcher
Also you still haven´t told me what the Panther is good for when StuGs totally out-dps it. Iirc the StuG reload is 4 seconds, the Panthers reload is 6.25 seconds. For a 640 HP T-34 the Stug will need 16 seconds, while the Panther will need 25 seconds. With the ready aim time and other factors this might differ but only marginally so.


This is the same for all factions, heavier tanks have worse dps for their cost than lighter ones. But you mean this should be changed specifically for the Ost panther, so that it becomes better at everything than stugs?
11 Jul 2016, 14:58 PM
#57
avatar of Rollo

Posts: 738

lol@ people saying the tiger is worse than the churchill

Panthers and Brumbar bad lategame? top kek, not much chance of capping VP's lategame vs Ost when they have vet armour parked on a point.

Don't forget map hax 222/spotting scopes that also shoot down your recon planes, that's really fun
11 Jul 2016, 15:06 PM
#58
avatar of JoeH

Posts: 88



Implying that the other factions doesnt require micro to play well?...

Ost is pretty much the best well rounded designed faction, and highly rewards great micro, and the faction itself has a wonderfull synergy between the units in each tier.



From the guy mainly playing allies, must be really easy to justify each win with "ohh the enemy did not micro good enough but my rifleblob is totally ok". Yes Ost can be rewarding but mainly due to the fact that every single one of your units are so underpowered that every win feels like a miracle.
11 Jul 2016, 15:08 PM
#59
avatar of ZombiFrancis

Posts: 2742

Panthers won't dig Ostheer out of a bad situation. However, they are excellent at sealing a victory when the Ostheer player is winning.

They do help OKW because they don't get their panther until they also get access to their P4. It's the tank OKW can get out before the KT. It's price and performance, though better, isn't the whole picture.

Ostheer has StuGs, as well as the P4, in an earlier tier. I feel that many Ostheer players cripple themselves skipping T3 to get the 'better' T4 tank. Ostheer's Panther is not timed the same way as OKW's, which matters a great deal for Allies players.

Not to mention the stock-KT threat of OKW by default requires a different play-style on the part of the Allies. When you know your opponent can't field anything heavier than a Panther due to their loadout, it has significant strategic implications.
11 Jul 2016, 15:09 PM
#60
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3474 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Jul 2016, 15:06 PMJoeH


From the guy mainly playing allies, must be really easy to justify each win with "ohh the enemy did not micro good enough but my rifleblob is totally ok". Yes Ost can be rewarding but mainly due to the fact that every single one of your units are so underpowered that every win feels like a miracle.


That Troll :foreveralone:
Or you don't know how to count :loco:
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