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russian armor

[Ost] Rebalance

16 Jun 2016, 15:02 PM
#21
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 1392

Of course I am able to play with a mixed army. I am not showing on my gaming problems, but you have too see that Ost is the most difficult fraction ingame. Look at other themes.

My opinion is, that Ost is badly designed. At least since OKW released. Maybe they are balanced, but at least they are bad designed.

This is a WW2 game, let the armies look realistic and historical, bringing them on a fair level is the scond step. But you can only balance that what you have, and that is a bad designed fraction. And there are basic ambiguities that can be fixed with simply move units between fractions, or change other things.


And mybe I am playing with mates which arn't the bests, but I can meet them and drink some beer in real-life.
16 Jun 2016, 15:29 PM
#22
avatar of IncendiaryRounds:)

Posts: 1527

Permanently Banned
Ost does need a lot of work to be done on it but not in the way you've described. Tier 4 is for the most part, useless. Panther needs a buff to accuracy on the move cuz most players use it as a mobile counter to armor. Usually if you have a panther, your opponent has more armor and would most likely try to swarm your panther. If a panther wants to get away, its frontal armor cannot be relied upon. And the pathetic rate of fire doesn't help either. To put the nail in the coffin, all axis tanks have terrible accuracy on the move but the panther needs the extra accuracy the most since its always trying to chase down armor or get away from a sticky situation. That's why the panther is unreliable. To get one panther, you can get 3 stugs (I'd pick 3 stugs any day.) Brummbar on the other hand needs thicker frontal armor. Zooks still penetrate too often imo. The brummbar was meant to counter blobs (esp USF blobbing) yet it gets countered by the blob itself. SMH. Either nerf the penetration of the zook (which i doubt) or buff the frontal armor of the brumbar. Tier 4 is a huge investment in 1v1 so it better pay off which it doesn't. Panzerwerfer is a situational unit and may be helpful provided you have the fuel to tech tier 4 just for the werfer. The cheaper tech costs for tier 3 and 4 will only partially help. I always ask myself, where's Ostheer's late game that allied players b*tches about? It was nerfed to oblivion. Even the Tiger is not much to be feared.

Pgrens could use a buff at vet 2 or 3. However, they are quite ok against Soviets, I just find them quite underwhelming against USF. Later in the game, you simply can't afford to use grens to replace lost inf cuz you need to buy an lmg for them to be effective at all. So you get pgrens. But one man gets cut down when you try to close the gap just trying to get in a midrange (not even a close quarters engagement) cuz USF easily have the munis to double upgrade everything. I guess thats fine for vet 0 pgrens. But at vet 2 or 3 there should be a larger health and/or damage buff. I've seen this too many times: a vet 3 pgren vs vet 3 double bar rifle and mid or close range and my pgrens don't have the advantage (even fight). The way i see it, pgrens have 4 automatic weapons and rifles only have two. BARs have insane recoil and shouldn't be too good close quarters. That is disheartening. As well pop cap issues against USF are rampant. Rifles should use same pop cap as tommies yet they are the same as grens when rifles are always better than grens, whether stock rifles vs stock grens or upgraded grens vs double upgraded rifles. And of course when my 9 pop cap pgrens struggle to go toe to toe against rifles, my pop cap really hurts.And the garbage bundled grenade, but it's FINALLY getting buffed, smh.

Ost in general have the most non-doc underperforming units. Tier 4, ostwind (sorriest excuse for an antt-inf tank), pgrens are all difficult to use. You can argue that the P4 may be underperforming as well since the sherman beats it handily in anti-inf and can almost go toe to toe with it (pray to the RNG gods and a bit of micro and the sherman may come out on top). Cromwell is in the same situation, ridiculously fast, can circle a p4 faster than the p4 can rotate its turret. And both tanks cost slightly less.
16 Jun 2016, 15:45 PM
#23
avatar of IncendiaryRounds:)

Posts: 1527

Permanently Banned
This is exactly what is wrong with the Ostwind. It's only good against blobs (AoE tank) which USF uses most often. But as little as 2 zooks can scare off the ostwind. Too often do u see the USF blob player react to an ostwind by rushing the ostwind with zooks. Try that with shreck pgrens against a centaur. Result: dead pgrens. Whereas the rifles might just get a bit wounded and many times wouldn't lose a single man when the squad closes the distance between itself and the ostwind. The accuracy of the Ostwind is beyond bad compared to the centaur when its stationary and a nasty accuracy penalty on the move, paper armor and a 5 second reload time. The ostwind can be mediocre at times but the low accuracy makes it so unreliable and inconsistent. Any small buff will do for the ostwind: slight increase to accuracy on the move, reduced accuracy from handheld anti-tank, reduced reload time, a little suppression, anything really. The Ostwind is mediocre at best, completely useless at worst.
16 Jun 2016, 15:58 PM
#24
avatar of Vuther
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3103 | Subs: 1

This is exactly what is wrong with the Ostwind. It's only good against blobs (AoE tank) which USF uses most often. But as little as 2 zooks can scare off the ostwind. Too often do u see the USF blob player react to an ostwind by rushing the ostwind with zooks. Try that with shreck pgrens against a centaur. Result: dead pgrens. Whereas the rifles might just get a bit wounded and many times wouldn't lose a single man when the squad closes the distance between itself and the ostwind. The accuracy of the Ostwind is beyond bad compared to the centaur when its stationary and a nasty accuracy penalty on the move, paper armor and a 5 second reload time. The ostwind can be mediocre at times but the low accuracy makes it so unreliable and inconsistent. Any small buff will do for the ostwind: slight increase to accuracy on the move, reduced accuracy from handheld anti-tank, reduced reload time, a little suppression, anything really. The Ostwind is mediocre at best, completely useless at worst.

I don't think it's right at the moment, but it's not useless. Like so much of Wehrmacht, it needs combined arms. Pair it with an HMG42, and Zooks are helpless against it - much like how an Ostwind will kill infantry blobs that are killing HMG42s even while suppressed.

It needs it a bit too much, though, for sure. The unit could use one more thing to make it more independent, or perhaps a cheaper price to justify it being likely heavily dependent on synergistic support to perform its own role (while StuG Gs just need basically any unit to be in bit in front of it to make full use of its 50 range).
16 Jun 2016, 16:06 PM
#25
avatar of Waegukin

Posts: 609

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Jun 2016, 10:03 AMKatitof
That's not redesign, that's your wet dream and that's definitely not a thread for balance forum, but for modding hub at most.

+1
16 Jun 2016, 16:06 PM
#26
avatar of IncendiaryRounds:)

Posts: 1527

Permanently Banned
jump backJump back to quoted post16 Jun 2016, 15:58 PMVuther

I don't think it's right at the moment, but it's not useless. Like so much of Wehrmacht, it needs combined arms. Pair it with an HMG42, and Zooks are helpless against it - much like how an Ostwind will kill infantry blobs that are killing HMG42s even while suppressed.

It needs it a bit too much, though, for sure. The unit could use one more thing to make it more independent, or perhaps a cheaper price to justify it being likely heavily dependent on synergistic support to perform its own role (while StuG Gs just need basically any unit to be in bit in front of it to make full use of its 50 range).

Handheld antitank doesn't get much of an accuracy penalty when suppressed. As long as the ostwind is within range of zooks, the zooks will hit and penetrate. Plus smoke will always be used against an mg. I find ostwinds are fighting 20% of the time, running away from a threat 50% of the time and getting repaired 30%.
16 Jun 2016, 16:14 PM
#27
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 1392

Ostwind doesen't hit anything when it's mobile. Make it more accurate or give it a tiny suppression effect, so it can pin important targets before you flee.


Yes, maybe it is more modding than balancing. But I thing Ost need a redesign to get balanced. So it is also balancing.
16 Jun 2016, 16:14 PM
#28
avatar of IncendiaryRounds:)

Posts: 1527

Permanently Banned
Ostwind doesen't hit anything when it's mobile. Make it more accurate or give it a tiny suppression effect, so it can pin important targets before you flee.

Exactly.
16 Jun 2016, 16:16 PM
#29
avatar of Vuther
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3103 | Subs: 1


Handheld antitank doesn't get much of an accuracy penalty when suppressed. As long as the ostwind is within range of zooks, the zooks will hit and penetrate. Plus smoke will always be used against an mg. I find ostwinds are fighting 20% of the time, running away from a threat 50% of the time and getting repaired 30%.

I forget if the accuracy penalty affects handheld AT or not, but the real reason the suppression works well with it is because the speed penalty will make keeping the Ostwind able to shoot at the blob while out of range of the AT child's play.

Smoke won't stop a microed Ostwind's shots, since it can just attack-ground. It won't be wiping a blob by the time they get unsuppressed from behind smoke, but it should do some good work damaging them and helping your other units handle them, TL;DR COMBINED ARMS FOR WEHR ALL DAY EVERY DAY, which why the Ostwind could still use a buff because it's not a one-stop shop for infantry blobs like other comparable units.
16 Jun 2016, 16:19 PM
#30
avatar of IncendiaryRounds:)

Posts: 1527

Permanently Banned
jump backJump back to quoted post16 Jun 2016, 16:16 PMVuther

I forget if the accuracy penalty affects handheld AT or not, but the real reason the suppression works well with it is because the speed penalty will make keeping the Ostwind able to shoot at the blob while out of range of the AT child's play.

Smoke won't stop a microed Ostwind's shots, since it can just attack-ground. It won't be wiping a blob by the time they get unsuppressed from behind smoke, but it should do some good work damaging them and helping your other units handle them, TL;DR COMBINED ARMS FOR WEHR ALL DAY EVERY DAY, which why the Ostwind could still use a buff because it's not a one-stop shop for infantry blobs like other comparable units.


I know u can still engage the blob at max range, but i find that the accuracy tapers off quite a bit at max range. Agreed on the one-stop shop for blob killing cuz even the nerfed centaur will stop Ostheer blobs easily. and OKW will lose its volk shreck blob too (afther the patch) so it all allied armor can breathe easier.
16 Jun 2016, 16:40 PM
#31
avatar of Intelligence209

Posts: 1124

OP. You forgot the old TA, or 2013 stug(beta) keep the motor just give it 2013 stats, as well as the flak HT. Now we're talkin....
16 Jun 2016, 17:23 PM
#32
avatar of Partisanship

Posts: 260

This is not so much a rebalance as much as it is a simple buff for most aspects of Ostheer gameplay. I play plenty of Ostheer and I hardly find them bad. Some changes don't make sense either such as swapping MG42 and the beloved mortar. What you would get is just an army that is questionably the same as OKW, which makes it boring for Axis variety. I'd rather see new innovations than just mix and matching existing units and concepts.
17 Jun 2016, 06:06 AM
#33
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 1392

If I give Gren a free grenade and make Molotov free as well, I don't see a reason why this shouldn't be balanced? This would improve urban battle skills or... aginst bad micro. They are also not cheap, decide if you want a flamethrower or 3 grenades, so you can choose your tactic not only one working way. At least this grenades arn't as good as other grenades too + the reducing of throwing range if pinned make it more difficult to use it well if your enemy has any rate of skill. And they are called "Grenadiere" where are their grenades?


But you get a chance of brutal playing without choosing Assaultgrenadiers.


Do you think Panther worth its investment?
17 Jun 2016, 06:24 AM
#34
avatar of BeefSurge

Posts: 1891

I actually think it's more fitting for Ost to have leig18 and MG34 and OKW to have mortar/mg42, I also like Grens with stick grenades.

It's also more fitting for Panzergrens to have G43 rifles
17 Jun 2016, 15:34 PM
#35
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 236

go away 4v4 players.
17 Jun 2016, 21:36 PM
#36
avatar of PencilBatRation

Posts: 794

So, pios will be able to build sandbags and wire it right after. With increased starting resources and HMG42 moved to HQ, this change will make OST early game incredibly strong.
17 Jun 2016, 22:48 PM
#37
avatar of Butcher

Posts: 1217

Do you think Panther worth its investment?
No. Imperial Dane adressed this in his latest Porpagandacast addendum and I have to agree. Making T4 cheaper isn´t going to fix the issue that it´s a weak tier. Panthers don´t cut it and with the anti heavy armor buff for all Allied factions, it´s only going to be worse. T4 is for the Brummbär hipsters now. Panzerwerfer and especially Panther remain underwhelming.
17 Jun 2016, 23:01 PM
#38
avatar of shadowwada

Posts: 137

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Jun 2016, 10:14 AMKatitof
Out of curiosity, is that you?

https://www.coh2.org/ladders/playercard/steamid/76561198005288013

If so, well, explains a lot.
You play exclusively 4v4 AT and still suck at it.

You have much, MUCH bigger concerns then design of faction, and your suggestions just scream that you want to have an extremely easy a-move faction that can rely on spamming fuel caches in 4v4 only.

I can't see any other reason.


Bring back OP opel blitz & Strafing run #Make4v4GreatAgain

Only buff wehr needs is gren early game buff
20 Jun 2016, 11:40 AM
#40
avatar of SolidSteel

Posts: 74



Bring back OP opel blitz & Strafing run #Make4v4GreatAgain

Only buff wehr needs is gren early game buff


T2 80 mun 4 Shotguns upgrade the dream!
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