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SU-85; The Thread

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29 Aug 2013, 14:43 PM
#361
avatar of Mauser

Posts: 255

I would also like to see that. Provided the players are at least a decent skill level.

EDIT: Link0, I see you are rank 44 germans and rank 47 soviets. I immediately have more respect for your opinion and I would now really like to see a replay of how you use stugs (also against su85's) please please. I really love the stug and would like to learn how to use it better in its current state.
29 Aug 2013, 20:58 PM
#362
avatar of pewpewforyou

Posts: 101

I watched quite a few of Link0's replays in CoH. Dude is good. I'd also like to see a replay.
29 Aug 2013, 21:10 PM
#363
avatar of link0

Posts: 337

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Aug 2013, 14:43 PMMauser
I would also like to see that. Provided the players are at least a decent skill level.

EDIT: Link0, I see you are rank 44 germans and rank 47 soviets. I immediately have more respect for your opinion and I would now really like to see a replay of how you use stugs (also against su85's) please please. I really love the stug and would like to learn how to use it better in its current state.


Okay, I'll remind myself to save some replays. I'm not lying that I use them in about 1/2 of my games as German.
29 Aug 2013, 22:48 PM
#364
avatar of Ekko Tek

Posts: 139

I love using Stugs as well - soon as I see a T70, it's my go to tank. Obviously you can't use it alone vs. an SU-85 but considering the timing and costs, that's not surprising. Lately more and more Soviet players have been choosing Tier3 over Tier4 as well in my experience.
30 Aug 2013, 00:53 AM
#365
avatar of akula

Posts: 589

how does stug stack up compared to panzer IV vs. t70 and t34/76

considering the cost and all
30 Aug 2013, 01:18 AM
#366
avatar of Ekko Tek

Posts: 139

It's cheaper, has better penetration, and slightly better reload time. I don't recall all the stat differences but remember those. It's a better anti-tank choice - just have to use it more defensively due to the lack of a rotational turret. With the recent buffs to the T-34 I think it makes the Stug a better choice over the Panzer vs T3 Soviets.
30 Aug 2013, 03:22 AM
#367
avatar of Nullist

Posts: 2425

Permanently Banned
T-34 runs circles around a Stug.

The speed differential is hilarious.
30 Aug 2013, 03:24 AM
#368
avatar of Ekko Tek

Posts: 139

Only if you let them.
30 Aug 2013, 03:34 AM
#369
avatar of Nullist

Posts: 2425

Permanently Banned
Only if you dont let them.
30 Aug 2013, 03:36 AM
#370
avatar of JohanSchwarz

Posts: 409

Lately more and more Soviet players have been choosing Tier3 over Tier4 as well in my experience.


The problem with this is that it is only a temporary meta shift, IMO. The buff to the T-34 was good, but still not enough to offset just how good the SU-85 already is. As soon as the majority of people realize they can still "LOL-reverse" out of anything as long as they have a spotter, the meta is going to go straight back to t1+t4.
31 Aug 2013, 17:44 PM
#371
avatar of nikolai262
Donator 22

Posts: 83



The problem with this is that it is only a temporary meta shift, IMO. The buff to the T-34 was good, but still not enough to offset just how good the SU-85 already is. As soon as the majority of people realize they can still "LOL-reverse" out of anything as long as they have a spotter, the meta is going to go straight back to t1+t4.


If you play careful and manage to get one to vet one you can just use the blitzkrieg ability it rapes su 85's its just pitiful watching it try and turn as it gets nailed happened to me several times today. I tried to button it but they just used smokes.
31 Aug 2013, 18:50 PM
#372
avatar of JohanSchwarz

Posts: 409



If you play careful and manage to get one to vet one you can just use the blitzkrieg ability it rapes su 85's its just pitiful watching it try and turn as it gets nailed happened to me several times today. I tried to button it but they just used smokes.


At the same time, the Su-85 gets that super sight range at Vet1 essentially eliminating any need for the cone ability, meaning the "nerf" essentially did nothing.

You can't use the P4 veterancy as an argument against the Su-85's cost-efficiency. That would be like me saying Maxims are better than MG42 because they get a sprint ability at Vet1 that can outrun the MG42's deploy time.

And if the German P4 is blitzing into your Su-85, why was there no conscript to nade the P4? It is much more effective than buttoning when they have smoke. Mines would do the trick as well.
31 Aug 2013, 20:52 PM
#373
avatar of Blovski

Posts: 480

It's cheaper, has better penetration, and slightly better reload time. I don't recall all the stat differences but remember those. It's a better anti-tank choice - just have to use it more defensively due to the lack of a rotational turret. With the recent buffs to the T-34 I think it makes the Stug a better choice over the Panzer vs T3 Soviets.


But also only 2/3 the health and no better armour. They're a nice stopgap if you have no fuel and you have some extra AT to back them up and prevent them getting T-34 rushed (and the Vet ability is great) but the P-IV is definitely better vs. T-70s and usually better vs T-34s.

@Johan... Tier 1 -> Tier 4 relies on preserving units better than the Ostheer player. It's kinda higher risk than T2->T3. I think the Ostheer Scout Car change makes T1->T4 much elss easy to pull off (just because previously an upgunned AC was overpriced as an exclusive counter to the M3). I'm hoping that making MG 42s properly flankable will make conscript spam and T2 starts a bit more appealing on maps like Langreskaya.
31 Aug 2013, 22:01 PM
#374
avatar of JohanSchwarz

Posts: 409

@Blovski: I do agree that the T1 part of the T1+T4 atm is harder to pull off as the AC is quite effective vs. snipers now and you only need to spend the 25 fuel instead of 50 for two, but it doesn't really change the fact that once the Soviets get to picking between T3 and T4, the latter is generally the more cost effective choice.

The Soviet weak early game is caused by the AC (which I do think is a little too versatile post-patch) but in this thread we should treat that as a separate issue as once (if) that is changed T1+T4 will become the default route once more.

The only real reason the Soviets have to choose T3 over T4 is anti-air for strafing run, which is another problem completely and probably deserves its own thread. Again.
1 Sep 2013, 01:45 AM
#375
avatar of Omega_Warrior

Posts: 2561



At the same time, the Su-85 gets that super sight range at Vet1 essentially eliminating any need for the cone ability, meaning the "nerf" essentially did nothing.


At vet 1 all it gets is the tracking ability, which I believe lets you see nearby infantry on the minimap for a few seconds. A good ability, but it doesn't help the SU much, and doesn't really constitute as super sight range.
1 Sep 2013, 02:25 AM
#376
avatar of Blovski

Posts: 480

@Blovski: I do agree that the T1 part of the T1+T4 atm is harder to pull off as the AC is quite effective vs. snipers now and you only need to spend the 25 fuel instead of 50 for two, but it doesn't really change the fact that once the Soviets get to picking between T3 and T4, the latter is generally the more cost effective choice.

The Soviet weak early game is caused by the AC (which I do think is a little too versatile post-patch) but in this thread we should treat that as a separate issue as once (if) that is changed T1+T4 will become the default route once more.

The only real reason the Soviets have to choose T3 over T4 is anti-air for strafing run, which is another problem completely and probably deserves its own thread. Again.


Well, the real reason T3 is better vs strafing run is actually that the strafing run then doesn't affect any of your anti-infantry stuff, and it doesn't do much to AT guns either. In general it offers a load of options T-4 doesn't and vice versa. T-70s can just reclaim half the map, mince squads and get out before a P-IV can arrive.

I kind of think the cost-effectiveness of T4 vs T3 is very dependent on having your anti-infantry more or less covered already. I think unless the sniper preservation is made much easier (even before the AC changes, I think German players were cottoning onto dealing with snipers properly), or Shocks get a cost decrease or something, T3 is going to have a place in the meta.
1 Sep 2013, 02:29 AM
#377
avatar of Hissy

Posts: 176

Best thing about getting a T70 out fast is you follow up with a super cheap T34 (85 fuel) and ram a PIV if they pull one out. T70 floats behind it and proceeds to kill. You can then rebuild a T34 and if they rebuild a PIV your 60 fuel ahead.
1 Sep 2013, 03:31 AM
#378
avatar of JohanSchwarz

Posts: 409

@Blovski: The Su-76 offers some decent anti-infantry with its barrage ability; not enough to handle infantry on its own but supplements snipers quite well. Snipers are also quite a nuisance without the AC or strafing run. Even if you are able to use a halftrack to reinforce your troops it is still a considerable manpower drain (and prohibits the use of panzergrenadiers with shrecks). Moreover, I believe strafe (correct me if I'm wrong) does not affect units in holds, so building a SC later can help you preserve your snipers once German ACs are dead.

But yes, I do agree with you that T3 currently is a viable alternative to T4 because T1 is much weaker since last patch.

@Hissy: You're assuming the German player has a completely unsupported P4 with no panzerschrek or AT gun nearby. It takes quite a long time for a T70 to kill a P4. The ram ability is also considerably less effective post patch: if there's any obstacle in your path (including a crater from explosions) and the P4 reverse moves, the T34 will more likely than not overheat and become a sitting duck and free XP for the P4. The P4 also can hug the T34 as well.
1 Sep 2013, 12:19 PM
#379
avatar of Spetznova

Posts: 29

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Aug 2013, 13:45 PMNullist


Show me even one pro replay with effective Stugs.

Even ONE!

Do you accept challenge?

Hell, even a replay in which you feel you use Stugs effectively will do.


ImperialDane used them well in that recent propagandacast (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2YOvPLy9Ug&feature=c4-overview&list=UUyUcNdOxXcVt3o9eZKdza9w). It really shows how good target weak point is. He takes out a bunch of tanks with it, including SU85s frontally, like you wanted to see.
2 Sep 2013, 09:35 AM
#380
avatar of Mauser

Posts: 255



At vet 1 all it gets is the tracking ability, which I believe lets you see nearby infantry on the minimap for a few seconds. A good ability, but it doesn't help the SU much, and doesn't really constitute as super sight range.


It gets the super sight range focus sight ability free of charge at vet 0.
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