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(may preview) Sturmpioneer Veterancy needs to be looked at

8 May 2016, 19:10 PM
#1
avatar of Mr.Smith

Posts: 2636 | Subs: 18

And in particular, the Stun grenade they get at Vet3.

The addition of the schreck upgrade on Sturpioneers will have the following effects:
- It will be able to spam Sturmpioneers; now with near impunity, as they get access to anti-vehicle
- Schrecks will allow SPs to reach Vet5 at astronomical speeds, simply by breathing (I had 3 Vet5 Sturmsquads by the minute 28 on Rails and Metal, even though my opponents fielded no light vehicles).

This immediately becomes a major issue when somebody takes a look at the Veterancy achieved by Sturmpioneers. I am breaking that Vet down into pieces.

I know that this is a test patch, and the whole point is to actually try out things. However, I feel that there is no reason to squander testers' time like this, when the problem is so immediately obvious:
- If Sturmpioneers are supposed to get the schreck, their Veterancy has to be significantly slashed.

Stun Grenade


- Achievable at Vet3

When that grenade hits any member of an enemy squad, the entire squad gets stunned for 5 seconds

First of all, this grenade is bugged as hell:
- Retreat becomes unavailable during those 5 seconds
- If you were retreating, retreat becomes cancelled (and you get stunned)
- The nade also occasionally derps and causes issues with weapon teams and the like.

This easily becomes a terminator grenade, the moment you realise you can use it to chainstun any collection of enemy squads. Already with 3 squads chainstunning you, this amounts to 15 seconds of non-breakable stun. This will cause your infantry to bleed a lot, when you are supposed to be fighting -- what should have been -- a dedicated AT squad.

EDIT:
Actually, I wasn't aware of this, but in Miragefla's competitive edition mod, stun/concussion grenades have been changed to have the following effect:

Concussion and Stun Grenades
No longer stops units from retreating but will still slow the target momentarily when hit.

-Stun grenades now reduce speed rather than forcing units to the ground where they are unable to act.


That should address the (bug-borne) broken-ness of stun nades. However, it will also make them near-useless vs weapon teams/garrisons.

If schrecks remain on SPs, changing stun nades in that way is probably a good thing:
- It forces the player to also invest in Volks for garrison-clearing (thus, we move away from the "1 single unit that does everything" situation which was a feature of the Volksblob)
- Compared to PGrens, Sturms will have a disadvantage in that they have inferior grenades (even if PGren nades are overpriced).
- If OKW wants to invest in a schreck-heavy blob, they are making themselves extremely vulnerable to MG spam.

Combat Veterancy



If Stun grenade wasn't as big of an issue, just look at the Veterancy bonuses. Cummulatively, Sturmpioneers achieve:
- -48% received accuracy (Vet4)
- +68% accuracy (Vet5)
- (-30% cooldown)

(PS: if somebody could convert the cooldown/accuracy changes into a single + percent-DPS increase, please do so :) )

When we compare that veterancy to other, dedicated AI squads, we have:
Riflemen:
- -40% received accuracy (including Vet0)
- +30% accuracy
- (-20% cooldown)

Volksgrenadiers
- -29% received accuracy
- +50% accuracy
- (-20% cooldown)

Suppose you try to kill each of these squads using only small arms fire. If we factor received-accuracy-per-model AND the squad size, we have that:

A Sturmpioneer squad (4-man)
- is 35% more tanky than a Volksgrenadier squad (5-man)
- is only 7% less tanky than a (vet3) Rifleman squad (5-man)

(Tank-iness is important, when all you have to do is yolorush and spam stun grenades to get free wipes)

Not only Sturmpioneers start strong (that's supposed to be the early-game advantage of OKW), they will scale better, and also vet faster than dedicated AI squads.

When we factor the Schrecks, the tankiness and the stun-grenades, you are going to be killing that blob, how?

Utility/Construction



Veterancy aside, the newly-introduced Mech HQ repairs upgrade is going to be a slap to the face to whoever does NOT want to blob schrecks with the current OKW. It is completely unnecessary when you can have 3+ anti-everything SP squads.

Comparison to other Schreck-equiped squads



If we try to compare Sturmpioneers to Panzergrenadiers in a vacuum (just by looking at the bare stats), we have:

Sturmpioneers (300MP cost, 30 reinforce):
- Stun grenades (gained indirectly, when upgraded with Schrecks)
- Insane combat veterancy
- Repairs, mines
- (maybe minesweepers too, on top of that)

Panzergrenadiers (340MP, 34 reinforce):
- They lose a significant portion of their AI when upgraded with double Schrecks.
- Only have access to overpriced normal grenades.

However, there is more to that. If you must absolutely build a schreck blob, OKW will let you build up your critical mass immediately, the moment the game starts. With OST Pgrens, you still have to spend your initial manpower on something else to hold out. That something is probably going to be AI. Thus, by the time Pgrens become available you probably have to invest on something that's dedicated AT.

With OKW, there is no lossage. You can spam sturmpioneers as long as you manage the bleed. By the time the first enemy vehicle hits the field, it's a blessing; you can now begin vetting your blob, and steamrolling over enemy infantry.

Finally, I'll close this post with a quiz. Assume you have 3 Riflemen squads, and you see the enemy approaching with one Obers squad, one Sturms Schreck squad and you also spot one MG34 setting up in the distance to suppress you. Who do you focus fire on, first?

Recommended build order for 2v2 and up:
(initial SP) - SP - kubel - SP - Volks - (doesn't matter which truck; prolly Med for healing) - MG34 - MG34

Battle tips:
- If the enemy fields an early light vehicle vs you, try NOT to finish it off. Instead keep it alive so that you can accumulate veterancy faster.
8 May 2016, 19:21 PM
#2
avatar of PanzerGeneralForever

Posts: 1072

Change amount of vet received from the shrek. If you can...
8 May 2016, 19:27 PM
#3
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4376

Give them 2 sherck change vet from accuracy to cooldown (40% at least)
8 May 2016, 19:34 PM
#4
avatar of Vuther
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3098 | Subs: 1

I haven't tried it yet, so you can get minesweeper with Schreck?

Change amount of vet received from the shrek. If you can...

I'm assuming probably not, people were asking that for Volks Schrecks forever.
8 May 2016, 19:44 PM
#5
avatar of Domine

Posts: 497

jump backJump back to quoted post8 May 2016, 19:34 PMVuther
I haven't tried it yet, so you can get minesweeper with Schreck?


No, you cannot.



Also lol at the attempt to nerf Sturmpios even further, because why should a 300mp unit even beat anything at all
8 May 2016, 20:12 PM
#6
avatar of TheMux2

Posts: 139

Just remove shreks from OKW, it doesnt matter on wich Unit they are they will always be broken. Shreks and zooks ruin the Game since you het mad XP from a single hit
8 May 2016, 20:36 PM
#7
avatar of Mr.Smith

Posts: 2636 | Subs: 18

I will reiterate. The biggest issue with Schreck-Sturmpioneers is the Stun nade.

Other Schreck-capable can also have the stun-nade (Stormtroopers/Panzergrenadiers). However, both units cost more, are squishier and almost completely sacrifice their AI performance when upgraded with Schrecks.

Change amount of vet received from the shrek. If you can...


That would solve a ton of issues with the game. The fact that Miragefla's mod doesn't contain a fix to such an obvious issue probably means that the fix is not achievable through mods (thus, we will never see this fixed).

Give them 2 sherck change vet from accuracy to cooldown (40% at least)


Double-schreck change would help a ton. However, it will not solve the chain-stunning problem due to the stun nade (gained through super-fast vet).

jump backJump back to quoted post8 May 2016, 19:44 PMDomine

Also lol at the attempt to nerf Sturmpios even further, because why should a 300mp unit even beat anything at all


Please go ahead and play a 2v2+ match in the balance preview mod. Build 3 sturmpioneers. When you have 3 pioneers that reach Vet3 come back to this thread and share your experiences (I say "when" and not "if", because it's a certainty).

I believe you have misidentified the problem. The issue is none of the following:
- "a 300mp unit beating anything at all"
- a 300mp schreck-bearing unit being able to fight back dedicated anti-infantry units

It's the fact that:
- a 300 unit is FAR better at either AI or AT than a specialist unit that costs 340 (Panzergrenadiers)
- When blobbing that unit, you not only force-retreat enemy squads; you wipe them; because stun grenades prevent retreats.

Also, I don't see how "Sturmpios nerfed even further" is relevant here:
- The last thing changed with SPs was their price dropped from 320 to 300
- The Schreck upgrade just literally redefined their role. Shouldn't their veterancy change to reflect that?
8 May 2016, 21:13 PM
#8
avatar of Percieis

Posts: 55

jump backJump back to quoted post8 May 2016, 19:44 PMDomine


No, you cannot.



Also lol at the attempt to nerf Sturmpios even further, because why should a 300mp unit even beat anything at all


Actually, you can get both the minesweeper and panzerschreck. You can still put away said minesweeper as well.
8 May 2016, 21:21 PM
#9
avatar of CartoonVillain

Posts: 459

How exactly are you going to spam a unit with that cost in manpower and pop? Not to mention that you will be completely wrecked if you don't get enough volks.
8 May 2016, 22:01 PM
#10
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 7741 | Subs: 2

It's not hard to understand. If SP is meant to KEEEP SHRECK, then veterancy must be reworked (same happened with Volks, even during the era with limited resources).

Stun nades across the board need proper fixing.
9 May 2016, 00:04 AM
#11
avatar of easierwithaturret

Posts: 247

Give them 2 sherck change vet from accuracy to cooldown (40% at least)

Double shrecks with -40% cooldown :drool:
9 May 2016, 00:14 AM
#12
avatar of Vuther
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3098 | Subs: 1


Double shrecks with -40% cooldown :drool:

Cooldown shouldn't really affect Schrecks, the vast majority of what stops it in between rounds is reload time.
9 May 2016, 00:20 AM
#13
avatar of Mittens
Donator 11

Posts: 1259

just make a new AT unit and put it into battlegroup. Sturmpios vet could go up but it would change how the base ones perform. Maybe reduce the damage they do or give the double ones like pgrens while removing the stun nade.

9 May 2016, 00:27 AM
#14
avatar of RedDevilCG

Posts: 154

I thought the stun grenade bugs were fixed. I guess not.
9 May 2016, 02:52 AM
#15
avatar of Hitman5

Posts: 467

Allied whiners will never be satisfied until OKW has no Panzerschreks. In fact, probably not until all OKW weapons are replaced with sticks.
9 May 2016, 03:08 AM
#16
avatar of Firesparks

Posts: 1930

the stun grenade is broken. Fix that before changing anything else.

9 May 2016, 03:32 AM
#17
avatar of ThoseDeafMutes

Posts: 1026

What happens if we universally change "Stun grenades" to make them cause aoe supression instead of the stupidly bugged stun effect? We already have mines suppressing now, so it should be possible and it would prevent most of what you're talking about. The exact suppression value would need to be tweaked and played with to work out what's fair but you would be able to retreat from it, or stay there and tank the suppression if you have support units ready to relieve you.

The reason I propose this instead of the OBVIOUS solution (i.e. "fix the fact that it's buggy as balls and cancels retreats") is because this solution would not require changes that you couldn't do in a mod of some kind, to my knowledge. The modest CoH2 team isn't making engine changes at this point in the game.
9 May 2016, 07:09 AM
#18
avatar of Mr.Smith

Posts: 2636 | Subs: 18

How exactly are you going to spam a unit with that cost in manpower and pop? Not to mention that you will be completely wrecked if you don't get enough volks.


You are going to save that manpower by cutting down on unnecessary units (Volks etc), and crutching heavily on MG34s (230MP) to win you infantry-heavy engagements, until your SPs gain vet. This will hopefully lure your enemy into fielding an early vehicle (and thus feed you vet). Instead of 5 Volks - 1 SP, you will get 3/4 SPs - 1 Volks.

With the received accuracy bonuses SPs get from vet, they are actually going to bleed you less than Volksgrenadiers in infantry-heavy engagements.
- It takes 120MP to reinforce 4 SP models
- It takes 125MP to reinforce 5 Volks
- 4 SP models are 35% tankier than 5 Volks models

If it is possible to spam Panzergrenadiers (which it is, on certain modes), it is far more doable to spam sturmpios.

Give them 2 sherck change vet from accuracy to cooldown (40% at least)


I actually rethought the cooldown thing; it might fix the 100% accuracy vs tanks. However, it might completely break the flamer package upgrade :D

I thought the stun grenade bugs were fixed. I guess not.


What -might- have been fixed is the part that bugs weapon teams. Retreat-derping is still there, and happens 100% of the time.

just make a new AT unit and put it into battlegroup. Sturmpios vet could go up but it would change how the base ones perform. Maybe reduce the damage they do or give the double ones like pgrens while removing the stun nade.



That would be an idea definitely worth trying. The fact that the AT squad does not come out of T0 means that a blob-inclined OKW player will still have to invest some MP on filler units until the schrecks can start rolling.

However, Sturmpios are not necessarily a bad choice for a carrier. It's the implementation that has to change (give them double schrecks, and tweak their veterancy).

What happens if we universally change "Stun grenades" to make them cause aoe supression instead of the stupidly bugged stun effect? We already have mines suppressing now, so it should be possible and it would prevent most of what you're talking about. The exact suppression value would need to be tweaked and played with to work out what's fair but you would be able to retreat from it, or stay there and tank the suppression if you have support units ready to relieve you.

The reason I propose this instead of the OBVIOUS solution (i.e. "fix the fact that it's buggy as balls and cancels retreats") is because this solution would not require changes that you couldn't do in a mod of some kind, to my knowledge. The modest CoH2 team isn't making engine changes at this point in the game.


The thing with suppression is that a suppressed squad that is under fire (from any source) will probably never become unsuppressed. I don't -think- you can have timed suppression, but I might be wrong.

Thus, if you have 1 sturmpio squad vs 3 riflemen squads clumped up, and the grenade manages to suppress all of the squads, the sturmpio can keep all of them suppressed by switching targets. This will almost always force a retreat, which might be rather OP. At the same time, a retreat will always be possible (unlike the guaranteed derp-wipes you can get in the may preview mod).

Conversely, suppression grenades will lose the entirety of their potency vs garrisons (you can't suppress them).
9 May 2016, 08:02 AM
#19
avatar of JohnnyB

Posts: 2396 | Subs: 1

Allied whiners will never be satisfied until OKW has no Panzerschreks. In fact, probably not until all OKW weapons are replaced with sticks.


I am not an Allied whiner and at first I thought shreck on SPs is to much also.
The things are quite complicated, I have to admit.

Virtually, a buffed raketen + faust combo should be enough for OKW's early game, stimulating also mine play IF shrecks not available. Tried this before shrecks for SPs where introduced.

Then, SP shrecks appeared and, as OKW, you have a quite big dilema. Let me explain:

Knowing that allied can spam light / medium tanks pretty fast and in sufficient numbers, you are tempted to have a good AT solution right from the first 7 minutes. Now here comes the difficulty: - if you spam SPs and give them shrecks, that will be a fragile strategy, I personally tested this and SPs are not as survivable and spamable as volks. You may be overwhelmed by infantery and forced to retreat to often if you have an intelligent opponent - shrecked sturms are not that good vs infantry, no matter what anyone will say. You will gradualy lose map while hurting your finger pushin squad reinforcement key.
- if you want everything, meaning volks with stgs, faust use, SPs with shrecks, and so on, you will discover that your amo income will not be suited for that, so you will have to chose on what you will focus. Virtually, you have to decide if you want some strong volks or some AT SPs. You can't have both and make it count.

So at the end, Allied players should not be to concerned about shrecks on SPs after all. Surprisingly, I find it harder to use this OKW with shrecks on SPs than the previous OKW without this feature.
9 May 2016, 08:39 AM
#20
avatar of some one

Posts: 918

remove stun grenade
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