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Red army - army of criminals?

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22 Apr 2016, 19:10 PM
#21
avatar of MissCommissar

Posts: 673

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Apr 2016, 19:06 PMHitman5
Still waiting for famous axis thread


Why from me? People will write about axis whining threads right after new patch will come. There will be such shitstorm of posters, they won't even need me.

Maybe I will write thread about Axis, when case with balance and patches will be more quiet and stable. Right now it's difficult to talk about balance, while it is all on paper...
22 Apr 2016, 19:23 PM
#22
avatar of Kamzil118

Posts: 451

I still beilve, that Call of Duty: World at War shown us more fair and correct portrait of soviet soldiers of late war, than CoH 2. Angry, brave and absolutelty unstopable.
You forgot vengeful, hateful, cruel, and merciless...
22 Apr 2016, 19:26 PM
#23
avatar of MissCommissar

Posts: 673

You forgot vengeful, hateful, cruel, and merciless...


Yea, true. You know, we call that thing "War". And that thing is pretty tough...
22 Apr 2016, 21:40 PM
#24
avatar of DiePest

Posts: 90

Mate, you really have to stop with these threads.

Open your extra and mind for what really happend in WW II besides what the propaganda told you or what you want to believe as true. History is always blurred by blind patriotism.

Most soldiers were criminals in WW II. They raped, they stole, they murdered prisoners of war and they killed civilians. All sides, no exceptions.
Think about that before demanding "Angry, brave and absolutelty unstopable." heroes like in Call of Duty which is as historical correct as Braveheart and The Lion King.

Sorry for slight off topic but I had to say that!
22 Apr 2016, 21:48 PM
#25
avatar of Intelligence209

Posts: 1124

OP should have thread making rights revoked
22 Apr 2016, 22:04 PM
#26
avatar of MissCommissar

Posts: 673

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Apr 2016, 21:40 PMDiePest
Mate, you really have to stop with these threads.

Open your extra and mind for what really happend in WW II besides what the propaganda told you or what you want to believe as true. History is always blurred by blind patriotism.

Most soldiers were criminals in WW II. They raped, they stole, they murdered prisoners of war and they killed civilians. All sides, no exceptions.
Think about that before demanding "Angry, brave and absolutelty unstopable." heroes like in Call of Duty which is as historical correct as Braveheart and The Lion King.

Sorry for slight off topic but I had to say that!


Good news for you - there are no "criminals" on war, actually, in our everyday understanding of that word, we don't talk about "military crimes" now. There are no civil rules, just can't be. All those conventions, morale cryings of naive politics/hippies and all that bullshit - just dissapers after first hours of real war for people. Rape, steal, murdering and killing civilians - can't say, that it is all OK, but that's how things on all wars goes. It's understandable.

People killing each other, losing everything, that they had... Imagine, how much soviet people, soviet soliders lost during all those tough years of fighting. Houses, families, friends... It becomes understandable, why soldiers wanted to revenge so hard to their enemies.

And for history correction should say, that Soviet high command tried to prevent all those things as hard as they could. For raping, killing civilians in liberated cities or even for stealing - executions mostly or serivce in Penal, if soldiers/officers had some achivments. It wasn't like in "Enemy at gates" or how that bullshit called... Dicipline was important, so commanders keeped eye on that hard.

Btw, that's all about "moralistic cryings about war". Thread is about Penals, which were 100% formated with military criminals (low diciplines, alcogholics, same rapist, thiefs, etc...) and criminals from prisons and camps, who wanted to go on front and protect Motherland as all other people did.

We have 2 stock soviet infantry squads in game. First are clear and good Conscripts, real combat and morale core of Red Army. Second are Penals - we already understood, who they were mostly. What Relic did - overbuffed Penals, totally ignored underpowered (personal opinion) Cons. So, now soviet players will just have to use Penals as core, as mainline infantry, ignoring Cons - so small their firepower is. I don't think that it is historically or logically correct.

That would be same as "overbuffing expandable for Reich Osttrupen traitors" ignoring "good and race clean soldiers of Reich - grenadeers". It just goes against simple logic! I don't have anything against buffing Penals but... It doesn't make sense.

22 Apr 2016, 22:05 PM
#27
avatar of ABlockOfSalt

Posts: 70

The entirety of the Red army (and Russia as a whole, down to the man) are all theiving rapists. Enemy at the Gates was a documentary, Hitler did nothing wrong.

Sincerely;
- The Relic Campaign team


That's all he wanted. We can all go home now.
22 Apr 2016, 22:09 PM
#28
avatar of Longshot_Cobra

Posts: 143

He is right.
How exactly can you explain that Penals are any better than mainline infantry?

22 Apr 2016, 23:26 PM
#29
avatar of Fluffi

Posts: 211


(...)
It makes me think, that Relic see those bastards as real core of soviet army - that's sad, actually.

(...) And it will be veeery sad, cos Red Army's core were not cowards and deserters, but brave, full of hate and really skilful (in latest periods, when CoH 2 happens) soldiers.

I still beilve, that Call of Duty: World at War shown us more fair and correct portrait of soviet soldiers of late war, than CoH 2. Angry, brave and absolutelty unstopable.



So, that makes you sad?
At least they aren't portrayed as a bunch of chubby pyjama-wearing caricatures like half of the Wehrmacht in CoH 1. Have you ever looked closely at the Grenadier model in CoH 1? Not only do they wear ridiculously thick, bad looking uniforms and overly rusty helmets, no, Relic found it necessary to give them one of the overall worst looking sets of facial varaints in the history of Relic games :P

And half of the CoH 1 Wehrmacht units used that model even though Relic had many good models at their disposal. It is pretty obvious Relic made them look like unrealistic, bad looking caricatures on purpose when you compare them to other models in CoH 1. Probablly because they wanted them to make for better "bad guys".

What do you think why there was so many skin-mods in CoH 1? Mostly because Grenadiers looked terrible. The other CoH 1 models were fine, some very good. But Relic used the worst model they ever made (CoH 1 Grenadiers) to represent over 14 units of the Wehrmacht faction (Grenadiers, Pak Crews, Tank Hatch Gunners, Nebelwerfer Crews, Bunker MG Gunners, slight variations with the same mostly terrible facial variants were used on mortars and mg42 teams. etc etc.).


So the portrayal of soviets makes you sad? Well, I say, be happy they didn't portray the russians as mostly ugly farts like they did the germans in vanilla CoH 1 o_O
22 Apr 2016, 23:36 PM
#30
avatar of Tobis
Senior Strategist Badge
Donator 11

Posts: 2178 | Subs: 4

He is right.
How exactly can you explain that Penals are any better than mainline infantry?


Conscripts are freshly conscripted soldiers never having fought a day in their life, penals are veteran enough to have already been arrested after seeing some fighting.
23 Apr 2016, 00:10 AM
#31
avatar of Syllabeer

Posts: 41

Penals battalions such as the Branderburger regiment were used in very High-risk High-reward mission due to expendability. However, due to the nature of these missions they were given good equipment in order to succeed with these special ops.

There, thats why they are better than newly recruited soldiers. Furthermore, there are elite soldiers still in the Red Army such as shocks and guards. Your logic is flawed due to your lack of history knowledge
23 Apr 2016, 00:17 AM
#32
avatar of hubewa

Posts: 923

Have to agree with OP, Penals could possibly be renamed to "Assault squad" or "Urban squad" instead.

This has nothing to do with propoganda. This game is all about frontline units fighting each other, not the war crimes tribunal. Hell, you can't even do any war crimes in this game if you tried (except CoH1 shooting medics Kappa).

Penals battalions such as the Branderburger regiment were used in very High-risk High-reward mission due to expendability. However, due to the nature of these missions they were given good equipment in order to succeed with these special ops.

There, thats why they are better than newly recruited soldiers. Furthermore, there are elite soldiers still in the Red Army such as shocks and guards. Your logic is flawed due to your lack of history knowledge


Yes but in general, they weren't. You can't use special cases to even describe or depict history as a whole.
23 Apr 2016, 00:37 AM
#33
avatar of Jadame!

Posts: 1122

Pointless trolling.

Why british is army of emplacements? Why wehr is badly motorized army of completely outmatched infantry and best air support? Why OKW have so much manpower despite representing depleted german forces? Why USF, who had some of the best planning, dont know about existence of combined arms and relies (almost) soley on rifles?



Also conscripts were poor souls with literally 0 military training tossed in hell of a slaughter against best trained army of the time. What you expect them to do? Go full rambo and snipe hmgs42 from the front?
23 Apr 2016, 00:45 AM
#34
avatar of MarcoRossolini

Posts: 1033

Instead of reading trashy German records or watching dodgy History Channel documentaries, let's ask the penal units themselves how they were equipped.

If you read the memoirs of Alexander Pyl'cyn, a veteran Penal battalion officer you will notice that the officers involved were often enough decent guys who'd recognised silly orders for what they were and disobeyed them with the result that they were sent to a penal unit.

What's more, the unit, as it would be assaulting some of the most difficult objectives, would receive a mountain of specialist weapons, flamethrowers, SMGs etc, oddly enough, exactly what we're getting in game. :)

As for being an "army of criminals". Well, someone's been listening to too much of Goebbels. Not saying many in the army aren't guilty of appalling crimes, but that's just Lord Haw-haw propaganda stuff.
23 Apr 2016, 02:03 AM
#35
avatar of hubewa

Posts: 923

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Apr 2016, 00:37 AMJadame!
Pointless trolling.

Also conscripts were poor souls with literally 0 military training tossed in hell of a slaughter against best trained army of the time. What you expect them to do? Go full rambo and snipe hmgs42 from the front?


Sorry 0 military training? Even Conscripts in 1941 defending Moscow got even more training than that.
23 Apr 2016, 03:05 AM
#36
avatar of Jadame!

Posts: 1122

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Apr 2016, 02:03 AMhubewa


Sorry 0 military training? Even Conscripts in 1941 defending Moscow got even more training than that.


Yeah, sure, they were spec ops units undercover of peasants, what i was thinking. Especially ones which were essentially civil defense conscripted in desperate defence of Moscow, Leningrad and Stalingrad after utter destruction of all professional army not involved into guard of eastern border from possible japs invasion in first 3 months of German invasion.
23 Apr 2016, 05:07 AM
#37
avatar of hubewa

Posts: 923

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Apr 2016, 03:05 AMJadame!


Yeah, sure, they were spec ops units undercover of peasants, what i was thinking. Especially ones which were essentially civil defense conscripted in desperate defence of Moscow, Leningrad and Stalingrad after utter destruction of all professional army not involved into guard of eastern border from possible japs invasion in first 3 months of German invasion.


Even then they had a week of training, but thats neither here nor there considering that the game is set in 1944 when the soviets actually had time to train their men.
23 Apr 2016, 08:22 AM
#38
avatar of MissCommissar

Posts: 673

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Apr 2016, 03:05 AMJadame!


Yeah, sure, they were spec ops units undercover of peasants, what i was thinking. Especially ones which were essentially civil defense conscripted in desperate defence of Moscow, Leningrad and Stalingrad after utter destruction of all professional army not involved into guard of eastern border from possible japs invasion in first 3 months of German invasion.


But... You know what word "Volks" means, right? Volksgrenadeers and Volkssturm groups were pretty same german "conscripts". Wehrmacht tried to put there as much as possible experienced soldiers, who were injured or doesn't have good health qualities at all, but in late war casualteis were so big - there weren't enough of them. So, they conscripted a lot of civians, who absouletely never fought and had 0 combat experience, passed them through fast combat training, gave them not bad equipment and then sent on frontlines.

But in game, Volksgrenadeers performs veery good, way better than soviet conscripts. Sometimes even better, than usual grenadeers.

Soviet soldiers, from other side, in 1944-45 had really good combat experience after all those years of war. New conscripted soldiers also were trained and trained good - USSR did have time for training soldiers in 1944-45. But not conscripts were real core of Red Army in 1944-45, they had a lot of real good soldiers in action, passed through bunch of campaings and combats. So, mainline infantry of USSR supoused to be not "0-experienced coscripts", but good and tough soldiers, they could call them "Strelki". That was OK to throw unexperienced boys on combat in first years of war, when really mostly all professional army was wiped in first mounths and USSR had to defend itself really hard. But... when counterattack started - that was absolutelty unnecesary.

That perfect combat experience, also, was shown in crushing Japan "Kwantung Army" - biggest Japan army group - by soviet troops in only 1 mounth! 1 mounth!!! Compare it with US army achivments on Okinawa - years of fighing on shiity islands without serious results. Here 1 mounth - and entire Japan army crushed and pushed back from China. That's about "0 exerienced soviet soldiers" in late war.

P.S. Here is some "soviet propaganda" for you :D https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgKazTrhXmI&list=RDzgKazTrhXmI#t=9. For you could understand POWER OF TEH MOTHERLAAAAAND!!!
23 Apr 2016, 08:39 AM
#39
avatar of Shanka

Posts: 323


That perfect combat experience, also, was shown in crushing Japan "Kwantung Army" - biggest Japan army group - by soviet troops in only 1 mounth! 1 mounth!!! Compare it with US army achivments on Okinawa - years of fighing on shiity islands without serious results. Here 1 mounth - and entire Japan army crushed and pushed back from China. That's about "0 exerienced soviet soldiers" in late war.


Oh yeah you talk about his battle where soviet got more than the double of the men of the japs and 5 times more arties,and where the japs equipment was send to the pacific front, so they got only light tank and training aircraft :snfPeter:


Oh you want to talk about US in the pacific, please don't try, just don't, you make everyone laugh at you


Oh and somedays open real history books and stop looking at propaganda BS

23 Apr 2016, 08:41 AM
#40
avatar of MissCommissar

Posts: 673

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Apr 2016, 08:39 AMShanka


Oh yeah you talk about his battle where soviet got more than the double of the men of the japs and 5 times more arties,and where the japs equipment was send to the pacific front, so they got only light tank and training aircraft :snfPeter:


Oh you want to talk about US in the pacific, please don't try, just don't, you make everyone laugh at you


Oh and somedays open real history books and stop looking at propaganda BS


Well, then it will be discussion like "my propaganda vs your propaganda", I suppouse. About Japaneese.

But I hope, we won't argue about the fact, that in late war USSR had way more experienced and combat trained soldiers, than new conscripted. They all mostly were conscripts of 1942-43, so they had already years of combats and were more than enough skillful. But... in CoH 2 our mainline infantry is again "suppoused to be total nuubs" Conscripts, always ignored by balancing team of Relic and now we get overbuffed Penals, which will be our mainline... I think, that's conscripts should be overbuffed, and Penals should be kinda support infantry. Not like now - Penals mainline, Conscripts - support with AT-nades.
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