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Updates on BALANCE PREVIEW MOD

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25 Apr 2016, 10:58 AM
#261
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2

What of we keep schrecks but, lets say:
Med truck unlocks schrecks.
Rep truck unlock stgs.

?
25 Apr 2016, 11:10 AM
#262
avatar of SlaYoU

Posts: 400

What of we keep schrecks but, lets say:
Med truck unlocks schrecks.
Rep truck unlock stgs.

?


Would have been a smarter change, if shreks were nerfed accordingly, rather than this whole faction re-design. Since T2 is mostly infantry play and support weapons, having shreks in this tier is really fine, and since T3 is vehicle play, having STGs there seems rather interesting.
25 Apr 2016, 11:15 AM
#263
avatar of mortiferum

Posts: 566

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Apr 2016, 10:00 AMFul4n0

yeah, but don´t stop there, gonna remove all nades from ELITE inf as mainline infantery has them.


Very nice strawman mate.

The difference is, should every rifleman become a moving smoke projector now that they actually have a mortar.

The reason why Rifleman have smoke in the first place is since Pak Howitzer cannot fire smoke (that doesnt kill the rifleman :/ ), and they lack any other means of getting it. To clear garrison, it was Smoke + nade for USF while for OKW it was flame grenades from volks gren.

So that is the reason why I propose, USF should be forced to use the mortar that they now have to provide smoke against team weapons.

25 Apr 2016, 11:25 AM
#264
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Apr 2016, 11:10 AMSlaYoU


Would have been a smarter change, if shreks were nerfed accordingly, rather than this whole faction re-design. Since T2 is mostly infantry play and support weapons, having shreks in this tier is really fine, and since T3 is vehicle play, having STGs there seems rather interesting.


And I was thinking excalty the same.

Pure AI tier unlocks schrecks.
AT (let's say) tier unlocks STGs.

More variety, more strategical decisions... Just a thought.
Instead of taking schrecks away, let's give a choice.
25 Apr 2016, 11:26 AM
#265
avatar of SlaYoU

Posts: 400



And I was thinking excalty the same.

Pure AI tier unlocks schrecks.
AT (let's say) tier unlocks STGs.

More variety, more strategical decisions... Just a thought.
Instead of taking schrecks away, let's give a choice.


And wouldn't probably screw the whole faction as this "patch" will.
25 Apr 2016, 11:40 AM
#266
avatar of DiePest

Posts: 90

Does anyone have a clue why they left out all the other changes from Miragflas mod?
It just seems so randome. They mostly copied the mod directly while ignoring some other canges that were implemented.

The changes to Panther are just one example.

"Panther

Moving accuracy increased to put it inline with its role of being a mobile tank hunter.

-Moving accuracy increased from 0.5 to 0.6."

Also Raketenwerfer:
"Raketenwerfer
Now has pinned penalties to match other weapons and a delay on cloak. The delay was to stop Raketens from hiding the moment they see sight of the enemy. Increased the arc and range of the raketen for better field control to engage vehicles due to the lack of panzerschrecks with a cost increase.

-Now has weapon penalties when pinned.
-Added a 6 second delay before the camouflage activate when the ability toggled.
-Arc from 30 to 35.
-Range from 50 to 55.
-Cost from 270 to 300.
-Camo now arrives at veterancy 1 with the speed boost in stealth moved to veterancy 4."



Btw, here is the complete list of canges the mod provides:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/h1bqidtqtcpvz9j/AAB_3nnMbMpTk8dDfylItDKEa?dl=0
25 Apr 2016, 11:47 AM
#267
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Apr 2016, 10:00 AMFul4n0



yeah, same as SU if want to field handle AT, or USF if want to field a "heavy" or USF if want to field rocket artillery and...


yeah, too bad you have to pick, doctrine if you want off map arty.....




yeah, but don´t stop there, gonna remove all nades from ELITE inf as mainline infantery has them.

Hey smarty for us I meant every other faction like usf doesn't already have unique thing like over pop cap repair crew free squad etc
25 Apr 2016, 11:47 AM
#268
avatar of Jadek

Posts: 80

What of we keep schrecks but, lets say:
Med truck unlocks schrecks.
Rep truck unlock stgs.

?


Nice idea to me. More choices is needed.
25 Apr 2016, 11:56 AM
#269
avatar of skemshead

Posts: 600



Very nice strawman mate.

The difference is, should every rifleman become a moving smoke projector now that they actually have a mortar.

The reason why Rifleman have smoke in the first place is since Pak Howitzer cannot fire smoke (that doesnt kill the rifleman :/ ), and they lack any other means of getting it. To clear garrison, it was Smoke + nade for USF while for OKW it was flame grenades from volks gren.

So that is the reason why I propose, USF should be forced to use the mortar that they now have to provide smoke against team weapons.


Morter smoke has limited use against a decent player as they will simply reposition. It is just as effective to bombard. Morter is really ineffective against multiple mgs because of the cool down as well as the fact you cannot bombard multiple targets. I had opponent this morn that build 8 mgs through the course of a game with a maximum of 4 on field at any given time. If not for smoke, pak howie and 2 ranger squads flanking constantly i would have been screwed.

I realize someone spamming smoke everywhere can be frustrating and hard to counter if you go heavey mg and/or gren builds but it is hardly an autowin since it means no muni for anything else. Cq units like pgrens or sturm pios will turn tables easily.
25 Apr 2016, 14:35 PM
#270
avatar of Ful4n0

Posts: 345



Very nice strawman mate.

The difference is, should every rifleman become a moving smoke projector now that they actually have a mortar.

The reason why Rifleman have smoke in the first place is since Pak Howitzer cannot fire smoke (that doesnt kill the rifleman :/ ), and they lack any other means of getting it. To clear garrison, it was Smoke + nade for USF while for OKW it was flame grenades from volks gren.

So that is the reason why I propose, USF should be forced to use the mortar that they now have to provide smoke against team weapons.



reason why rifleman can get smoke is to smoke and flank mgs mate, howi can be fielded so late than for that time USF would be pushed completely out of the battlefield if not.....

And in addition, if you get a mortar in the early game as USF now, you are not going to upgrade to nade in the early game too, because both of them are usefull in that early game againts same things: machine guns and garrisons, so, addind a T0 mortar only give USF more openings, no one is going to delay tech coz he wants nades if he already fielded a mortar.....

so, please, don´t fix what is not broken...we have plenty of thing to fix before changing things that works perfectly fine.

25 Apr 2016, 14:45 PM
#271
avatar of WingZero

Posts: 1484

I have a question. Since Relic removed PS from V-Grens, OKW no longer has anti tank infantry any more?
25 Apr 2016, 14:46 PM
#272
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17568 | Subs: 8

I have a question. Since Relic removed PS from V-Grens, OKW no longer has anti tank infantry any more?

Exactly.

Soviets say hi.
25 Apr 2016, 15:17 PM
#273
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2691 | Subs: 1

I have a question. Since Relic removed PS from V-Grens, OKW no longer has anti tank infantry any more?


Nope.

But I highly doubt the panzershrek removal is going to make it through the eventual real update. OKW just relies to much on their panzershreks and simply replacing it with panzerfausts will not suffice.
25 Apr 2016, 15:24 PM
#274
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17568 | Subs: 8



Nope.

But I highly doubt the panzershrek removal is going to make it through the eventual real update. OKW just relies to much on their panzershreks and simply replacing it with panzerfausts will not suffice.


I'd say OKW relies on shrecks exclusively because of ease of use and accessibility.

You don't need to build puppchens, because you have basic inf.
You don't need to put down mines for same reason.
You don't need to get AT lights or lights at all, because volks hardcounter them with shrecks.

This way, if you want to use AT aggressively as OKW, you need to actually get it mechanized and go for puma/JP4 instead of relying on ever present blob of shrecks.

OKW will now actually have to anticipate and adapt BO accordingly, like all other armies, instead of relying on basic inf+inf call-in of your choice.
Soviets work with this dynamic since forever and its fine, it won't be the end of OKW either.
25 Apr 2016, 15:27 PM
#275
avatar of SlaYoU

Posts: 400

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Apr 2016, 15:24 PMKatitof
This way, if you want to use AT aggressively as OKW, you need to actually get it mechanized and go for puma/JP4 instead of relying on ever present blob of shrecks.


You might need to update your OKW database noobitof, JP4 is not in mechanized, and has never been.

To be more precise on the matter, people are far too much centered around light vehicles counters. Allies will go for early tank rush against OKW, especially that new T34. Skip light altogether, and go straight for T34 (and don't tell me you have to strangle the ally player economy before it happens, with MG34 available only after one truck is built, OKW will be a sitting duck and will NEVER have the initiative of engagements). Early T34, early Centaur, early double Stuart with free repairs (YAY, more nerfs to the mechanized truck pls).
25 Apr 2016, 15:48 PM
#276
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2691 | Subs: 1

I don't agree. The threats faced by OKW and Soviets are worlds apart. What early vehicles will Soviets face that can actually threaten their infantry? 222, flamer halftracks, AA halftracks, Panzer 2, 250 halftracks (rare). All of these are countered by the T70, and the T70 is also extremely lethal against infantry and is part of the natural tech progression for Soviets.

OKW don't have a T70 equivalent. All they have to counter light vehicles is the Puma, which is too specialized in AT and does not contribute to your early game army even if you manage to take out the enemies first vehicle. It also leads to an awkward tech path where you can either get your next armor in a reasonable timeframe but you don't get medics, or you get medics and greatly delay your armor.

OKW is going to get pretty unplayable in the balance mod. You can compare the preview patch OKW to the Brits. With Brits, it's AEC or bust. With OKW, it's going to be Puma or bust. But at least going for AEC will make your field presence stronger since it also kills infantry pretty well, going Puma does not, since it has only poor anti-infantry.
25 Apr 2016, 16:07 PM
#277
avatar of adamírcz

Posts: 921

What about a panzerschreck upgrade on... kubelwagen
25 Apr 2016, 16:10 PM
#278
avatar of Imagelessbean

Posts: 1585 | Subs: 1

I don't agree. The threats faced by OKW and Soviets are worlds apart. What early vehicles will Soviets face that can actually threaten their infantry? 222, flamer halftracks, AA halftracks, Panzer 2, 250 halftracks (rare). All of these are countered by the T70, and the T70 is also extremely lethal against infantry and is part of the natural tech progression for Soviets.

OKW don't have a T70 equivalent. All they have to counter light vehicles is the Puma, which is too specialized in AT and does not contribute to your early game army even if you manage to take out the enemies first vehicle. It also leads to an awkward tech path where you can either get your next armor in a reasonable timeframe but you don't get medics, or you get medics and greatly delay your armor.

OKW is going to get pretty unplayable in the balance mod. You can compare the preview patch OKW to the Brits. With Brits, it's AEC or bust. With OKW, it's going to be Puma or bust. But at least going for AEC will make your field presence stronger since it also kills infantry pretty well, going Puma does not, since it has only poor anti-infantry.


I think both of your arguments have merit. Forcing OKW to get Puma's will get old quickly, but I agree with Katitof that currently Shreks provide a crutch to allow OKW to do anything it wants instead of relying on the player to make intelligent strategy decisions. So while we do need to come up with some way to get OKW through the mid game by giving it some reliable AT, I think the loss of shreks is probably the best place to start since if places more onus on the OKW player.

Let's assume shreks get removed and come up with a better way to balance the faction. Do we need to improve the Flak HT to provide the OKW a light AT option in Med and a heavy AT option in the Puma in mech?
25 Apr 2016, 16:22 PM
#279
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2691 | Subs: 1



I think both of your arguments have merit. Forcing OKW to get Puma's will get old quickly, but I agree with Katitof that currently Shreks provide a crutch to allow OKW to do anything it wants instead of relying on the player to make intelligent strategy decisions. So while we do need to come up with some way to get OKW through the mid game by giving it some reliable AT, I think the loss of shreks is probably the best place to start since if places more onus on the OKW player.

Let's assume shreks get removed and come up with a better way to balance the faction. Do we need to improve the Flak HT to provide the OKW a light AT option in Med and a heavy AT option in the Puma in mech?


That's indeed the whole point with panzershrecks. OKW has many specialized anti-infantry units and a crappy AT gun. The panzershreks were the glue that held the faction together and allowed for several different playstyles. I don't see how this was a bad thing.

All of the changes made in the past that led to more variety always improved the game. Nerfing of the call-in meta made a lot more commanders viable for all factions. Removing OKWs resource penalty opened up a lot more strategies for them. Removing shreks will do the opposite of that.
25 Apr 2016, 16:26 PM
#280
avatar of Lucas Troy

Posts: 508

What if buying the schreck reduced the squad to 4 men? The idea being that there is a trade off and the squad doesn't get too durable. What do you guys think?

Maybe even a global upgrade that makes every folks squad 4 men but unlocks schrecks. That would be a meaningful choice? Right? Or maybe not. I dunno.

Plus also volks lose their nades when given schrecks?

I just feel like there's gotta be a more creative way to deal with this than cutting things out of the game.

The logic is that the schrecks are being brought in to make up for manpower problems.
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