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OKW manpower hack

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12 Apr 2016, 19:25 PM
#22
avatar of Dullahan

Posts: 1383

OKW doesn't magically have significantly more manpower.

They start with a 300 mp squad and ~350 manpower ready to spend.

USF starts with a 200 mp squad and ~400 manpower ready to spend.

Soviets start with a 170 mp squad and ~400 manpower ready to spend.


etc etc.

OKW starts with more upkeep, so gets less manpower per minute from the start of the game. They get +287/min ish while soviets for example get +294/min.

All things said and done, manpower is essentially equal.

What isn't equal is how people choose to spend their manpower. OKW likes to pump out a ton of units. Having 1 sturmpio, 4 volks and a kubel is 1510 manpower in units.

They simply build more units in the early stage of the game than most other factions. That's largely why they tend to perform so well in the early and mid game.

Playing with a smaller army is an option, personally I seem to often fit into that sort of playstyle where I spend less but am more efficient at holding map control. But investing in a big ass army is often the better strategy.

Go ahead and try building 1-2 more squads than you're used to against OKW and teching a bit slower and see how it goes. I think you'll have a much easier time against them.
12 Apr 2016, 19:52 PM
#23
avatar of FalseAlarm

Posts: 182

Permanently Banned
Having 1 sturmpio, 4 volks and a kubel is 1510 manpower in units.

1510-300 = 1210. Don't forget the starting sturms.


Also, don't miss the main point guys:

Another thing that make this 'hack' possible is the reinforce cost of volkgrenadiers. Unlike PGrens and PTRS guys (DEDICATED AT unit with some decent AI), their reinforcement cost is hilariously cheap. They also can clear out buildings, deny cover and burn emplacements. So a unit with so much utility and sick long range effectiveness should cost much more to reinforce, in order to encourage tactical gameplay instead of this "Ok imaa build 4 volks, mop through cons/tommies and burn MGs and get shrecks eventually, lol" meta.
12 Apr 2016, 19:59 PM
#24
avatar of Unshavenbackman

Posts: 680


Unless the designer has some sadistic (no offense just wondering) tendencies, they should start listening to the grieving of the community which has been going on since the release of WFA.


I am pretty sure most of the community thinks threads like this should be a insta ban.
12 Apr 2016, 20:39 PM
#26
avatar of Cabreza

Posts: 656

OKW doesn't magically have significantly more manpower.

They start with a 300 mp squad and ~350 manpower ready to spend.

USF starts with a 200 mp squad and ~400 manpower ready to spend.

Soviets start with a 170 mp squad and ~400 manpower ready to spend.


etc etc.

OKW starts with more upkeep, so gets less manpower per minute from the start of the game. They get +287/min ish while soviets for example get +294/min.

All things said and done, manpower is essentially equal.


Looking at your numbers it actually does seem like OKW might have above average starting manpower compared to Soviets. OKW starts with the equivilent of 650 MP while soviets start with the equivilent of 570 MP for a total difference of 80 MP in the OKW's favor. Meanwhile OKW starts with a higher upkeep meaning Soviets will earn 7 MP more per min than OKW. For the Soviets to make up that 80 MP advantage OKW starts with they would need to be at proportionally lower popcap for ~11 minutes. As a result that is either 11 minutes in which the OKW enjoys a MP advantage or Soviets reach equal popcap earlier in the match and the OKW has effectively received a small amount of free MP to start.

Note that this doesn't take into account tech either. When you consider that the soviet players is probably going to spend another 160 MP on T2 (or 150 MP on T1 if they like to live dangerously) at the start of a match it means OKW will have a 240 MP advantage. In other words at the start of the match the OKW player is only going to be 10 MP short of having an extra volks squad on the field. While things do begin to equalize when OKW builds their own tiers the bonus medics/engies and the fact that the tiers behave more like soviet T3 than T1/T2 means soviets will still be in a MP hole all things considered.

I'm not saying it's unbalanced, as there are a lot of different factors at play, but OKW definitely does have a manpower advantage early on.
12 Apr 2016, 20:57 PM
#29
avatar of FalseAlarm

Posts: 182

Permanently Banned
You have a brain (hopefully) and also you should have enough experience as all factions to see if you feel any empathy with the OP's points. It's either a yes or no, complemented with your own explanations.


https://www.coh2.org/topic/51661/player-card-bullying
12 Apr 2016, 21:39 PM
#32
avatar of Dullahan

Posts: 1383

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Apr 2016, 20:39 PMCabreza


Looking at your numbers it actually does seem like OKW might have above average starting manpower compared to Soviets.



It normalizes due to OKW having higher upkeep and slower build times. OKW has a very slight edge, but not a meaningful one. Ultimately there's dozens of gameplay reasons why this is fine. (Soviets have supporting weapons which let them win fights with less manpower invested for example)















12 Apr 2016, 22:02 PM
#33
avatar of Nosliw

Posts: 515

This was post was set to invisible by a moderator, for being off-topic, but the reply below is on topic.


You know that many RTS games revolve around having asymmetrical factions and that you don't need to perfectly align squad cost and unit performance to achieve a balanced game?

Perhaps you overlooked the fact that a faction like Soviets gets access to 6 man squads that cost 240 manpower that roll around a machine gun that can pin 4 volk squads all at once?

It's stupid to compare numbers on paper dude, come on. The real problem here is simply that you are not a good enough player to effectively play against OKW. The balance of this game at the moment is, as I think most would agree, quite good, and that the asymmetries of the factions is part of what makes this game unique and fun to play.
aaa
12 Apr 2016, 22:15 PM
#35
avatar of aaa

Posts: 1483

OKW doesn't magically have significantly more manpower.

They start with a 300 mp squad and ~350 manpower ready to spend.

USF starts with a 200 mp squad and ~400 manpower ready to spend.

Soviets start with a 170 mp squad and ~400 manpower ready to spend.


etc etc.


they okw start with tier already built so + smth like 160/20. And cheaper tech tree in general. I think its obvious
13 Apr 2016, 00:16 AM
#36
avatar of FalseAlarm

Posts: 182

Permanently Banned
jump backJump back to quoted post12 Apr 2016, 22:02 PMNosliw

It's stupid to compare numbers on paper dude, come on. The real problem here is simply that you are not a good enough player to effectively play against OKW.
So in your words, average players (500-750) are not good enough to play against OKW, because some self proclaimed RTS expert egomaniacs approve the current state of balance and furiously believe that it shouldn't be changed?


That is a big problem right there.
13 Apr 2016, 01:32 AM
#38
avatar of Domine

Posts: 500

So in your words, average players (500-750) are not good enough to play against OKW, because some self proclaimed RTS expert egomaniacs approve the current state of balance and furiously believe that it shouldn't be changed?


That is a big problem right there.



Do you know how the winrates for the factions actually look like?
13 Apr 2016, 02:30 AM
#40
avatar of Appleseed

Posts: 622

really if i remember correct, SP's receive accuracy is same as other engineers, so every time you see a SP, they are all ways immediate running towards you because they will die in range fight. also volks can't really win against any main line infantry in 1 on 1 fight.

also why could you build two Maxim from start when against OKW. if i am playing SU i will get 3 cons with AT nades (for kubel) first then get a HMG. SU will win the infantry engagement. if your CE or cons sees a SP running towards it, if SP get too close sprint out the range, and lure it towards your 2nd con sq. if they stop chase, you chase them and fire at its back. two have same running speed yet cons will have sprint, so always out of reach of SP, SP will lose 100% of the time in range fight.
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