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russian armor

Tiger vs Pershing

26 Mar 2016, 20:54 PM
#21
avatar of Nemesis10192

Posts: 54

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Mar 2016, 20:53 PMShanka


Same problem as the Firefly, you need to invest tons of ammo in the tank to make it perform at 100% of his AT Capability which is flat-BS



Yes but the firefly (non-vet 3) is a shit tank destroyer besides its tulips (which cost 100, AND have an equip cost) and does nothing versus infantry whereas the pershing is an infantry killing monster with or without HVAP. HVAP just lets it compete with most axis heavy armour.
26 Mar 2016, 20:56 PM
#23
avatar of RedT3rror

Posts: 747 | Subs: 2

RealLife heavy tank =/= Coh2 heavytank

Coh2 heavy tanks are restricted to 1 at a time. Pershing is restricted to 1. It's a heavy tank by Coh2 standards. Period.

About the Pershing: It has better agility and gains vet faster. On the other hand the Tiger gets very powerful vet bonuses, especially vet2 with increased range and decreased scatter makes it vastly superior compared to the Pershing. At vet3 its speed comes close to that of the Pershing.

The Pershing goes down in 5 hits and is usually confronted with AT weapons that have higher penetration than the Tiger. For a Tiger 7 hits are needed.

There's also a variety of Tiger doctrines with different playstyles and lethal offmap abilities. The Pershing doctrine on the other hand is weak against defensive playstyles, especially Pak43 or superheavies. A quick death can also be delivered by a Command Panther.
26 Mar 2016, 20:59 PM
#24
avatar of Nemesis10192

Posts: 54

RealLife heavy tank =/= Coh2 heavytank

Coh2 heavy tanks are restricted to 1 at a time. Pershing is restricted to 1. It's a heavy tank by Coh2 standards. Period.

About the Pershing: It has better agility and gains vet faster. On the other hand the Tiger gets very powerful vet bonuses, especially vet2 with increased range and decreased scatter makes it vastly superior compared to the Pershing. At vet3 its speed comes close to that of the Pershing.

The Pershing goes down in 5 hits and is usually confronted with AT weapons that have higher penetration than the Tiger. For a Tiger 7 hits are needed.

There's also a variety of Tiger doctrines with different playstyles and lethal offmap abilities. The Pershing doctrine on the other hand is weak against defensive playstyles, especially Pak43 or superheavies. A quick death can also be delivered by a Command Panther.


Tiger is 7 but again HVAP is a garanteed 240 which makes the duels much closer than you might first think and is always garanteed for the pershing whereas the tiger can get unlucky with only a 73% pen chance.

Agreed with your last paragraph- it definitely has problems in team games where super heavies actually exist (and in numbers) and campier playstyles are possible, but i think the Pershing is a FANTASTIC tank for 1v1s. It also fits the CP/resource curve where you can play lt into m20 into captain and stuart and hit the fuel right about when you hit the CPs so maximises the powercurve.
26 Mar 2016, 21:00 PM
#25
avatar of Intelligence209

Posts: 1124

As for OP, nice job with the stats and such. But I mean, different army. Different tanks? They are not ment to be mirrored?
26 Mar 2016, 21:07 PM
#26
avatar of varunax

Posts: 210

RealLife heavy tank =/= Coh2 heavytank

Coh2 heavy tanks are restricted to 1 at a time. Pershing is restricted to 1. It's a heavy tank by Coh2 standards. Period.

About the Pershing: It has better agility and gains vet faster. On the other hand the Tiger gets very powerful vet bonuses, especially vet2 with increased range and decreased scatter makes it vastly superior compared to the Pershing. At vet3 its speed comes close to that of the Pershing.

The Pershing goes down in 5 hits and is usually confronted with AT weapons that have higher penetration than the Tiger. For a Tiger 7 hits are needed.

There's also a variety of Tiger doctrines with different playstyles and lethal offmap abilities. The Pershing doctrine on the other hand is weak against defensive playstyles, especially Pak43 or superheavies. A quick death can also be delivered by a Command Panther.


This guy gets it.

As for OP, nice job with the stats and such. But I mean, different army. Different tanks? They are not ment to be mirrored?


No one says they are supposed to be mirrored. One tank shouldn't suck just because.
26 Mar 2016, 21:11 PM
#27
avatar of Nemesis10192

Posts: 54

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Mar 2016, 21:07 PMvarunax


This guy gets it.


Are you a team player or a 1v1 player?

In team games (I don't even play above 2s so am only commenting even from the small scaled perspective of 2v2s) the Pershing isn't amazing but is still far and away the best tank USF can field.

In 1v1s its a great tank.

By all means I would love if it the Pershing got buffed though if that is what you are suggesting it needs. 210 fuel and 12cps would mean the destruction can start just that little bit earlier.
26 Mar 2016, 21:14 PM
#28
avatar of varunax

Posts: 210



Are you a team player or a 1v1 player?

In team games the Pershing isn't amazing but is still far and away the best tank USF can field.

In 1v1s its a great tank.

By all means I would love if it the Pershing got buffed though if that is what you are suggesting it needs. 210 fuel and 12cps would just mean the destruction can start just that little bit earlier.


I used to play 1v1's but not anymore. Besides, heavy tanks are hardly even worth mentioning in 1v1's. If you're dragged into a 13 cp late game in 1v1 as USF, there's already a problem there. The game should've be over in the first 15 mins. Not discrediting the use of your heavy tank or skills, but axis clearly have the advantage late game and that's a whole nother topic I don't really care to discuss about.
26 Mar 2016, 21:18 PM
#29
avatar of Nemesis10192

Posts: 54

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Mar 2016, 21:14 PMvarunax


I used to play 1v1's but not anymore. Besides, heavy tanks are hardly even worth mentioning in 1v1's. If you're dragged into a 13 cp late game in 1v1 as USF, there's already a problem there. The game should've be over in the first 15 mins. Not discrediting the use of your heavy tank or skills, but axis clearly have the advantage late game and that's a whole nother topic I don't really care to discuss about.


The USF is at its weakest relatively to axis late game yes, but people never play perfect games and often for whatever reason some games are close and get dragged into the lategame (and 13cps can come in like 20 minutes anyway).

Also have you not met 80% of OKW players who camp with ISGs under a defensive schwerer covering a vp and cutoff/fuel?

Make ONE mistake and that schwerer goes up 100% dragging the game on whether you want it to or not.
26 Mar 2016, 21:22 PM
#30
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2

I have no idea who designed Pershing but it is completly different from what is should be if some history facts were used.

It should more more like a Panther with bit better AI and survability but also way slower. Keep in mind Pershing was slower than Tiger, yet in game it's a race car.
26 Mar 2016, 21:39 PM
#31
avatar of Zansibar

Posts: 158 | Subs: 2

I have no idea who designed Pershing but it is completly different from what is should be if some history facts were used.

It should more more like a Panther with bit better AI and survability but also way slower. Keep in mind Pershing was slower than Tiger, yet in game it's a race car.


According to Tiger 1 Heavy Tank by Tom Jentz and doyle the maximum sustained speed for the Tiger I on a road is 20 kph. https://sc-cdn.scaleengine.net/i/f8a87cabe8c55b34fa80c77e7262aa9e1.png

According to multiple sources (Hunnicutt etc) the T26E3s maximum sustained road speed is 40 kph. http://afvdb.50megs.com/usa/m26pershing.html

The M26 is twice as fast on a road on average.
26 Mar 2016, 21:50 PM
#32
avatar of WhiteFlash
Senior Mapmaker Badge
Benefactor 119

Posts: 1295 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Mar 2016, 20:10 PMKuprix


I've heard it was called "heavy tank" to encourage Americans during fights. They were facing Tigers and other heavy stuff and to keep their morale high the highest command of US army ordered to call Pershing heavy tank.


The pershing had 2mm more armor than the tiger. and a 90mm gun. In ww2 thats a heavy tank.
26 Mar 2016, 21:52 PM
#33
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2



According to Tiger 1 Heavy Tank by Tom Jentz and doyle the maximum sustained speed for the Tiger I on a road is 20 kph. https://sc-cdn.scaleengine.net/i/f8a87cabe8c55b34fa80c77e7262aa9e1.png

According to multiple sources (Hunnicutt etc) the T26E3s maximum sustained road speed is 40 kph. http://afvdb.50megs.com/usa/m26pershing.html

The M26 is twice as fast on a road on average.


Pershing's speed on road was 32km/h, Tiger's 38km/h.
It's what I see in my all books (more or less)

But nvm becasue it's on road, while in game we are mostly off road and Pershing sucked so much off road. Like a 10km/h slower than Tiger.

https://scontent-fra3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-0/p480x480/12801469_1147369561960408_7820833817983156029_n.jpg?oh=9a86db12c2b2f7f424a00c8d2164c8b3&oe=577A1A1B
26 Mar 2016, 21:55 PM
#34
avatar of PanzerGeneralForever

Posts: 1072



The Pershing is substantially faster (6 vs 4.7) substantially better acceleration (2 vs 1.5) and MASSIVELY better deceleration (4 vs 1.8).

The pershing gains +30% accel/decel on vet 1 whereas the tiger gains +20% speed +20% accel/decel on vet 3.

This leaves the tiger at vet 3 slower than the pershing (5.64) and with massively worse accel/decel. The pershing also gains its added nimbleness far earlier than the tiger.

All in all the Pershing is substantially more mobile than the tiger.


Thank you. Now people can make a better comparison between the two. I've always hated how ppl leave out these very relevant stats.
26 Mar 2016, 22:11 PM
#35
avatar of Zansibar

Posts: 158 | Subs: 2



Pershing's speed on road was 32km/h, Tiger's 38km/h.
It's what I see in my all books (more or less)

But nvm becasue it's on road, while in game we are mostly off road and Pershing sucked so much off road. Like a 10km/h slower than Tiger.

https://scontent-fra3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-0/p480x480/12801469_1147369561960408_7820833817983156029_n.jpg?oh=9a86db12c2b2f7f424a00c8d2164c8b3&oe=577A1A1B


The off road speed of the Tiger 1 is 15 kph

And the Pershing defintly wouldnt go 5 kph kek.

By the way what kind of source is that? Tom Jentz and Hunnicut have been some of the main sources for armor information since they base the statistics on documents from germany and aberdeen.

I have a book saying that the Tiger II is comparable to modern MBTs like the Abrams, and thats part of the reason why i would only keep myself to certain secondary sources.
26 Mar 2016, 22:38 PM
#36
avatar of Thamor

Posts: 290

Back to topic Pershing > Tiger. But when in all your games have got a situation where Tiger vs Pershing 100% health both duel to death without anything else happening from bazooka,shreck,faust,atgrens, at-guns, commander abilitys, mines, other vehicles...

If you add everything else there can be, then Tiger will be better or same as Pershing, but against other vehicles Pershing's double tap kill ability makes it better than tiger, because it can chase & finish opponents vehicles.
26 Mar 2016, 22:54 PM
#37
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2



The off road speed of the Tiger 1 is 15 kph

And the Pershing defintly wouldnt go 5 kph kek.

By the way what kind of source is that? Tom Jentz and Hunnicut have been some of the main sources for armor information since they base the statistics on documents from germany and aberdeen.

I have a book saying that the Tiger II is comparable to modern MBTs like the Abrams, and thats part of the reason why i would only keep myself to certain secondary sources.


This particular one is written by polish guy who is specialized in WWII history and has many books about weaponery during WWII.
(for example in different book written by some US guy I can see Tiger with 45km/h while Pershing 46km/h on road).

As for the off road, Ive found that Pershing was about 8-12km/h, while tiger 16-20km/h.

But as we see numbers are really different depending on the source. Yet, Im quite confident that Tiger was faster on off road.
26 Mar 2016, 23:25 PM
#38
avatar of Zansibar

Posts: 158 | Subs: 2



This particular one is written by polish guy who is specialized in WWII history and has many books about weaponery during WWII.
(for example in different book written by some US guy I can see Tiger with 45km/h while Pershing 46km/h on road).

As for the off road, Ive found that Pershing was about 8-12km/h, while tiger 16-20km/h.

But as we see numbers are really different depending on the source. Yet, Im quite confident that Tiger was faster on off road.


Yeah so am i, it is better designed for offroad performance compared to on road due to the overlapped torsionbar which evens out the weight more.
27 Mar 2016, 03:27 AM
#39
avatar of varunax

Posts: 210



Thank you. Now people can make a better comparison between the two. I've always hated how ppl leave out these very relevant stats.


Because people who are looking at which heavy tank has better acceleration or deceleration are looking at the wrong stats lol.

That's like comparing penetration values of the bren carrier vs the kubelwagen.
27 Mar 2016, 03:47 AM
#40
avatar of PanzerGeneralForever

Posts: 1072

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Mar 2016, 03:27 AMvarunax


Because people who are looking at which heavy tank has better acceleration or deceleration are looking at the wrong stats lol.

That's like comparing penetration values of the bren carrier vs the kubelwagen.


Sure bud
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