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Royal Artillery + Sexton Balance

25 Mar 2016, 17:52 PM
#21
avatar of Mr.Smith

Posts: 2636 | Subs: 18

Sexton is suxton, pretty much for every reason outlined by Katitof and Myself.

I'll throw some of the missing pieces of the puzzle here:

Cost:
- Priest: 475(ish) MP, 115 Fuel, 16 Popcap (crew can pop out of the tank though)
- Sexton: 375 MP, 90(ish) Fuel, 14 Popcap

Main barrage differences (Priest vs Sexton)
- 200 vs 160 damage
- 8 vs 6 AoE radius
- 7 vs 5 shells
- 180 vs 135 range (doesn't make much difference, tbh. You need to move close enough with the Priest either way)
- Cooldown at vet2 (63 vs 54 -- only thing that Sexton does better)

Note about creeping barrage:
- The Priest uses the sexton weapon profile when doing weapon barrages, which means less damage, less AoE. Never use creeping barrage with Priest.
- The Sexton fires 8 shells (the Priest still fires 7 shells) when doing a creeping barrage.
- However, the target area of the creeping barrage with the Sexton feels 2-4 times more spread than the Priest. Given the AoE profile of the Sexton, it's not worth it either.

PS: The Valentine definitely needs a popcap decrease. There is no way this tank is worth 12 Popcap (same as Cromwell or the P4 -- both variants)
25 Mar 2016, 17:59 PM
#22
avatar of Myself

Posts: 677

...

PS: The Valentine definitely needs a popcap decrease. There is no way this tank is worth 12 Popcap (same as Cromwell or the P4 -- both variants)


Valentine should has less pop and come without radar abilities. It should have a different vet 1 ability maybe defensive smoke.

Radar and able to can sexton support should be an upgrade limited to 1 similar to command upgrade...
25 Mar 2016, 18:15 PM
#23
avatar of NinjaWJ

Posts: 2070

Sexton is suxton, pretty much for every reason outlined by Katitof and Myself.

I'll throw some of the missing pieces of the puzzle here:

Cost:
- Priest: 475(ish) MP, 115 Fuel, 16 Popcap (crew can pop out of the tank though)
- Sexton: 375 MP, 90(ish) Fuel, 14 Popcap

Main barrage differences (Priest vs Sexton)
- 200 vs 160 damage
- 8 vs 6 AoE radius
- 7 vs 5 shells
- 180 vs 135 range (doesn't make much difference, tbh. You need to move close enough with the Priest either way)
- Cooldown at vet2 (63 vs 54 -- only thing that Sexton does better)

Note about creeping barrage:
- The Priest uses the sexton weapon profile when doing weapon barrages, which means less damage, less AoE. Never use creeping barrage with Priest.
- The Sexton fires 8 shells (the Priest still fires 7 shells) when doing a creeping barrage.
- However, the target area of the creeping barrage with the Sexton feels 2-4 times more spread than the Priest. Given the AoE profile of the Sexton, it's not worth it either.

PS: The Valentine definitely needs a popcap decrease. There is no way this tank is worth 12 Popcap (same as Cromwell or the P4 -- both variants)


thanks for the stats. didn't realize it was that different from the Priest
25 Mar 2016, 18:21 PM
#24
avatar of Mr.Smith

Posts: 2636 | Subs: 18

Addendum: If you are considering of buying a Sexton just to clear some garrisons or emplacements (Pak43, LeFH), consider getting a Firefly instead.

The Firefly is bit more expensive, however, it is much more reliable to fulfill either role. Both units occupy the same popcap, but the Firefly can also double as an AT unit, if needed.

25 Mar 2016, 18:38 PM
#25
avatar of Firesparks

Posts: 1930



Fireparks, are you insane? the priest is 140 fuel and the sexton is 80 or 90.....the performance should NOT match at all due to cost. If anything, cost paste priest to sexton and cost. but that would still be dumb.


the priest is 115 fuel, not that much more difference than the sexton's 90 fuel.
25 Mar 2016, 19:19 PM
#26
avatar of MarkedRaptor

Posts: 320

I think the Royal Artillery regiment is really close to being a viable commander. The following problems need to be remedied:

1. Munitions arty is meh until air burst shells are gotten, cost is still too high. For 3 call ins I could of just called in air supremacy and nuked everything in the area.

2. Valentine is super over priced. Seriously OKW get their map hack for like 5 fuel, wtf? Take out the Valentines ability for it to fight cuz it barely does that. I'd like a cheap utility unit please.

3. Sexton is kinda meh(I think this is a problem with all howitzer based arty)

Touch those things up and you'd have a good commander.
25 Mar 2016, 19:30 PM
#27
avatar of Mr.Smith

Posts: 2636 | Subs: 18

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Mar 2016, 17:59 PMMyself


Valentine should has less pop and come without radar abilities. It should have a different vet 1 ability maybe defensive smoke.

Radar and able to can sexton support should be an upgrade limited to 1 similar to command upgrade...


I don't think the extra range is as important as people make it out to be. Longer range = bigger scatter (both vertical and horizontal). Horizontal range also doesn't have a cap. Also, using the radar to target the barrage implies you want to target your Sextons into the fog of war. That's an added 25% scatter penalty.

Thus, in order for a supercharged shell (400 range) to have a chance to reliably damage the center of the barrage, the AoE of the Sexton shells would have to be buffed to match the Stuka 50Kg bomb levels (and I'm not even exagerating).

To be honest, I think that the greatest buff Relic could have given to rocket artillery is to reduce their max range by 30-40%. That way, people that insisted on doing max-range rocket artillery barrages would not complain about their performance (which led us to the previously-overbuffed state).

PS: Funny tidbit. It seems that the Valentine Sexton-barrage related ability spawns call-in artillery flares at the target location. For 15 Munitions, you could use it as a decoy barrage. Sadly it requires a Sexton to be present on the field to use.
25 Mar 2016, 19:44 PM
#28
avatar of Luciano

Posts: 712

Just remove brits from game, only way to fix them
25 Mar 2016, 22:53 PM
#29
avatar of Doggo

Posts: 148

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Mar 2016, 19:44 PMLuciano
Just remove brits from game, only way to fix them


Didn't work for OPKW.
25 Mar 2016, 22:55 PM
#30
avatar of Myself

Posts: 677



I don't think the extra range is as important as people make it out to be. Longer range = bigger scatter (both vertical and horizontal). Horizontal range also doesn't have a cap. Also, using the radar to target the barrage implies you want to target your Sextons into the fog of war. That's an added 25% scatter penalty.
...


The reason I suggested limited to 1 for radar for a lower pop cap is unrelated to Sextons.

If one can easily afford multiple valentines on the field he will be able to cover most of the map easily and will be very difficult to for the opponents to move undetected...

One should be able to use valentines but it in imo not more than 1 radar valentines...

I thing you are underestimating range a bit:
1) supercharge range is 400 but at vet 3 it benefits from the bonus and becomes 400*1,33=532 thus can cover most map from a very safe distance.

2) Scatter distance is capped at distance_scatter_max so after a certain range it is no longer affected...(15.5 in this case)

3) If one is firing at an enemy concentration his shots do not have to land in the center to be effective...
25 Mar 2016, 22:56 PM
#31
avatar of Doggo

Posts: 148

What is the point in building a Valentine without radar abilities? It can't fight and is expensive.
25 Mar 2016, 23:15 PM
#32
avatar of Myself

Posts: 677

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Mar 2016, 22:56 PMDoggo
What is the point in building a Valentine without radar abilities? It can't fight and is expensive.


great at crushing...no tech cost.

And that is why the concentrate barrage should not be a vet 1 ability...

Could also become cheaper or more combat effective if it needs too giving UKF an alternative medium/light tank...
25 Mar 2016, 23:23 PM
#33
avatar of Doggo

Posts: 148

It would need its cost reduced by 75% to be just 'on par' with those changes. Its weaker than an armoured car.

Sexton would need big buffs and price changes, as Doctrine is useless currently.
25 Mar 2016, 23:50 PM
#34
avatar of Virtual Boar

Posts: 196

Worst of all brit commanders with the worst arty unit. Enough said.
25 Mar 2016, 23:57 PM
#35
avatar of Myself

Posts: 677

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Mar 2016, 23:23 PMDoggo
It would need its cost reduced by 75% to be just 'on par' with those changes. Its weaker than an armoured car.

Sexton would need big buffs and price changes, as Doctrine is useless currently.


Scout car HP 320 armor 9/4.5 crush human false
Valentine HP 480 armor 120/80 crush human true

Not really comparable to an armored car...
26 Mar 2016, 00:34 AM
#36
avatar of Myself

Posts: 677

One of the issues of the Sexton is that is relies on the synergy with the vet 1 valentine to be effective.

If one turns Valentine into a normal call in tank and radar/concentration barrage an upgrade available to that tank with no vet required but limited to 1. One could balance all 3 units better.

In addition the Command Valentine could even have some sort of aura increasing Sextons performance...

Finally maybe Sexton should become a build-able unit (similar to t34/85, easy8) from t1 or t2 making available faster if one can spare the fuel giving UKF a more flexible indirect fire platform.

And there is the safest/boring option of buffing it and making more expensive and turning it into a mini priest.
26 Mar 2016, 02:14 AM
#37
avatar of tenid

Posts: 232

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Mar 2016, 23:57 PMMyself


Scout car HP 320 armor 9/4.5 crush human false
Valentine HP 480 armor 120/80 crush human true

Not really comparable to an armored car...


Try comparing it to an actually armoured car:

AEC: 400 HP, 40/12.5 armour, 120 gun damage - 280mp/60fu, 8 pop cap
Valentine: 480 HP, 120/80 armour, 80 gun damage - 300mp/80fu, 12 pop cap

While I'm here, I'll take a closer look at the gun. Both have the same penetration (100).
Going by the stat.coh2.hu calculations we have the following (F/N) dps values:

AEC: 11.86 / 21.56
Valentine: 5.30 / 9.64

Really, going by those stats the Valentine's gun is competing with coaxial machine guns. Even then it loses compared to the AEC's MG.

The fun part is that what information I can find says they historically used the same gun anyway (but going down that road would be complicated to say the least).
26 Mar 2016, 07:24 AM
#38
avatar of Myself

Posts: 677

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Mar 2016, 02:14 AMtenid

Try comparing it to an actually armoured car:
AEC: 400 HP, 40/12.5 armour, 120 gun damage - 280mp/60fu, 8 pop cap
Valentine: 480 HP, 120/80 armour, 80 gun damage - 300mp/80fu, 12 pop cap


Never claimed that Valentine has decent DPS...Ostheer scout Car is an armored car...

Again not really comparable to the AEC because it has more armor/HP and can crash Human. Scout car have lower armor and use wheels instead of trucks. If one want to compare it with something he should compare it to medium/light tanks

That is part of the problem with the valentine Sexton synergy. One has to reach vet 1 with the valentine to use the Combo and it rather difficult with a low DPS/fragile (for) medium/light tank.

That is why I suggested that is should lose the radar/"concentrated barrage" be balanced as meduim/light tank and have the radar/"concentrated barrage" as an upgrade but limited to 1. The upgrade could then reduce the fighting properties if needed...
26 Mar 2016, 09:24 AM
#39
avatar of Mr.Smith

Posts: 2636 | Subs: 18

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Mar 2016, 22:55 PMMyself

I thing you are underestimating range a bit:
1) supercharge range is 400 but at vet 3 it benefits from the bonus and becomes 400*1,33=532 thus can cover most map from a very safe distance.

2) Scatter distance is capped at distance_scatter_max so after a certain range it is no longer affected...(15.5 in this case)


distance_scatter_max will only cap vertical scatter. Horizontal scatter is an angle and has no cap.

According to the stats:
- The vertical scatter for both Priest and Sexton are capped at distance 124 (or 99 if firing into the FoW)
- Both units have a 5 degree angle horizontal scatter

Cruzz took the following picture of the scatter of a Sexton barrage at max range (135):


Thus, if you try to aim a sexton barrage at range 532, your barrage area will look 4.2 times wider. However, even at 135 range, I still find that unit unusable.

(PS: I haven't checked exactly which scatter stats are affected by the Vet2 bonus)

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Mar 2016, 22:55 PMMyself

3) If one is firing at an enemy concentration his shots do not have to land in the center to be effective...


- The Valentine concentration barrage spawns a warning flare, which mimics off-map abilities.
- If you are firing at a concentration, you will have one shot landing every 8 seconds. This is enough time to clear the area (even if the enemy somehow missed the warning flare)
- If you are fielding more than one sexton (and a Valentine) to better use the ability, you probably don't have the popcap for anything else


jump backJump back to quoted post25 Mar 2016, 22:55 PMMyself


If one can easily afford multiple valentines on the field he will be able to cover most of the map easily and will be very difficult to for the opponents to move undetected...


The tradeoff here is that the Valentine costs a crapload of resources (for its combat performance), has low HP and its gun is comparable to the Bazooka. I have never fielded or fought against a Valentine horde before. However, I strongly suspect that a single medium tank would be enough to hardcounter the Valentine horde.

Given its utility, the Valentine should not be buffed to the point that it becomes a very cost-efficient combat unit. However, its current state is pathetic (sure, the Valentine could lose its ability to crush infantry if it ever gets buffed).
26 Mar 2016, 09:33 AM
#40
avatar of NEVEC

Posts: 708 | Subs: 1

With regards to the Sexton Artilley... go and test this thing on Vet3! Because I kid you not, it has NO reload time. Hard to get there though


Almost every unit is good at vet 3.
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