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Let's talk about ostheer.

11 Mar 2016, 16:17 PM
#1
avatar of cptcool

Posts: 11

So, I've been more or less casually playing CoH series since the original release and I think this has been qol issue with the wehrmarch in both games.When they're initially released they are fine or even overpowered because of the opposing vanilla faction design...eg. the devs don't need to bother thinking units from more than one angle initially.

In both games they start off with decent early game infantry and superior support weapons which when correctly microed will help them to fend off the allies till late game when their superior armor arrives to finish the deal.This worked just fine in coh1 when it was just wehr vs USF and coh2 and ost vs soviets.However, later on in the development I think wehr became not "not viable" but rather frustrating to play in both titles but maybe we focus on coh2 from now on.

Now initially in vanilla coh2 matches you could just spam grens and win if you wanted to do that, because grens at that time had equal armor as cons but they were much more accurate and had really strong rifle grenade and having mg was just a cherry on the top, very good but not necessary if you prefer to go the more mobile infantry route.PGrens were good for pretty much the same reason.

This is however not the case anymore with the 2 new allied factions who both have stronger early infantry that will most of the time beat grens in early game unless the conditions heavily favor the grens...eg, superior cover and long range or later the when grens have more vet and or/mg42's.Now of course there are players who favor the combined arms tactic but I feel like its more of a unnecessary burden since all other 4 factions are not completely reliant on their support weapons early.

So I personally would like to see either relic adding 5th man to both pgren and gren squads and tuning down gren damage per model and perhaps tuning the mg42 suppression down a notch to compensate, I feel like this change would a)make pgrens actually viable late game AI infantry for the high price they come...340mp Right now they are just too squishy to do this job :( b)lessen chance of grenadiers instawiping from random explosives in late game and hence would give you more breathing room with them rather than using them as extremely cautious glass cannons from back lines.I guess another option would be replacing some of their later vet with additional squad member.

Something else I would like to see changed is the Pgren role.Right now its supposedly great anti-infantry medium range squad off the bat...but oh no, too squishy to do that.Instead you can use it as rather stronk at squad with dbl shrecks which kind of nullifies the purpose of the squad...stg44= medium range shreck = preferably max range.As such I would swap panzerfaust to pgrens and give grenadiers the option to upragade with 1 shreck and lmg or 2 shrecks invidually for 60 ammo each.That or one earlier proposition from some other forum user who suggested shrecks should be toggleable ability...although that was strongly opposed because it would remove the "choice factor" completely whether to upragade shrecks or not..still it would be better than current state of PGrens.

Oh and yes, i realize that ost is not completley underpowered crap faction atm nor I claim it to be, these in my opinion are pure QoL changes that would make sense seeing other 4 factions play similarly..apart from the soviets ofc but that is purely because cons and penols are both in a rather bad place atm. Thoughts?
11 Mar 2016, 16:32 PM
#2
avatar of PencilBatRation

Posts: 794

5Man Pgrens? They are already wrecking the SU and non-upgraded USF. I think they are in a perfect spot and possibly the only unit in game which shouldn't be touched. Though ot seems their vet speed has been ninja nerfed. It takes 26 con models to reach vet 3!



I like the Idea of removing double shrecks and giving them Faust. One of the best ideas ever. And grens with a single shrecks would be much better and similar to all the other factions.


Their range redefinition etc are bad suggestions, as I said they are pretty OK.
11 Mar 2016, 16:34 PM
#3
avatar of Vuther
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3103 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Mar 2016, 16:17 PMcptcool
Oh and yes, i realize that ost is not completley underpowered crap faction atm nor I claim it to be, these in my opinion are pure QoL changes that would make sense seeing other 4 factions play similarly..

Yeah...that's uh, not what the phrase means. It usually means something to the effect of "Small changes that fix minor annoyances and targets improving feel/intuitiveness rather than balance"
11 Mar 2016, 16:36 PM
#4
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1

Panzergrenadiers are great AI units right of the bat. A Panzergrenadier squad will beat a 2x BAR riflemen squad at medium range and under. From what I see from replays, people often just don't use them the right way. People often use panzergrenadiers as if they were SMG troops, trying to get them as close as possible to the enemy before stopping to open fire. This is simply not how you use them. They will drop models on approach and you will not have the models left to inflict damage. Instead, you should just stick them behind some cover at medium range and watch them do their magic.
11 Mar 2016, 16:52 PM
#5
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1

As for the rest of the thread... I don't think Gren spam should be a viable way to play Ostheer. Out of all factions, Ostheer has the best options for combined arms. You've got your snipers, HMGs, mortars, weapon upgrades, anti garrison, vehicle snares, solid AT-infantry etc. All fairly easy accessible with no side-tech upgrades required. If you just make grens equal to riflemen, then Ostheer would just be "all the things allies can do, and more".

11 Mar 2016, 16:58 PM
#6
avatar of cptcool

Posts: 11

As for the rest of the thread... I don't think Gren spam should be a viable way to play Ostheer. Out of all factions, Ostheer has the best options for combined arms. You've got your snipers, HMGs, mortars, weapon upgrades, anti garrison, vehicle snares, solid AT-infantry etc. All fairly easy accessible with no side-tech upgrades required. If you just make grens equal to riflemen, then Ostheer would just be "all the things allies can do, and more".



Which is why I suggested mg42(and other support weapons in necessary) should be tuned down, if these changes were to take place...which of course is rather unlikely seeing this isn't even the official forum.

Also Pgrens beat 2 bar'd riflemen? Im' gonna guess in that particular scenario the ami player wasn't using his infantry properly in contrast.Charge in red cover from max range against pgrens in green cover without using any kind of nade?
11 Mar 2016, 17:01 PM
#7
avatar of whitesky00

Posts: 468

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Mar 2016, 16:58 PMcptcool


Which is why I suggested mg42(and other support weapons in necessary) should be tuned down, if these changes were to take place...which of course is rather unlikely seeing this isn't even the official forum.

Also Pgrens beat 2 bar'd riflemen? Im' gonna guess in that particular scenario the ami player wasn't using his infantry properly in contrast.Charge in red cover from max range against pgrens in green cover without using any kind of nade?


Yes, this was tested a couple months ago with multiple videos with different vets on equal terms.
11 Mar 2016, 17:07 PM
#8
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Mar 2016, 16:58 PMcptcool
Also Pgrens beat 2 bar'd riflemen? Im' gonna guess in that particular scenario the ami player wasn't using his infantry properly in contrast.Charge in red cover from max range against pgrens in green cover without using any kind of nade?


This was actually tested using the cheat mod by another user and posted on the forums some time ago. It showed that when in equal cover, Panzergrenadiers just straight up won against 2x BAR riflemen at mid-range. No grenades and no moving involved.
11 Mar 2016, 17:16 PM
#9
avatar of Myself

Posts: 677

Just tried that. 2 rifle in heavy cover vs Pg heavy at grenade range...4 PG dead 1 riflemen dead....
11 Mar 2016, 17:18 PM
#10
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1

Miscommunication. It's not 2 riflemen squads with BARs. It's 1 riflemen squad with 2 BARs. If 1 Pgren squad could simply kill 2 riflemen squads with 2 BARs then nobody would even question the usefulness of Pgrens.
11 Mar 2016, 17:25 PM
#11
avatar of Myself

Posts: 677

2 riflemen no bars....
11 Mar 2016, 17:32 PM
#12
avatar of whitesky00

Posts: 468

video please. since as other users have stated. this was already proven/shown by another user with like 5 video tests.
11 Mar 2016, 17:33 PM
#13
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1

You would not expect 1 pgren squad to beat 2 riflemen squads in equal cover either.
11 Mar 2016, 17:33 PM
#14
avatar of Myself

Posts: 677

video please. since as other users have stated. this was already proven/shown by another user with like 5 video tests.

load cheat mode test it yourself. pls stop asking for videos.
11 Mar 2016, 17:35 PM
#15
avatar of whitesky00

Posts: 468

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Mar 2016, 17:33 PMMyself

load cheat mode test it yourself. pls stop asking for videos.


Because other people have already seen it. you want to disprove a point that's already been made and brought up in the past.
11 Mar 2016, 17:37 PM
#16
avatar of Myself

Posts: 677

You would not expect 1 pgren squad to beat 2 riflemen squads in equal cover either.


Did not say they should. The problem with PGs is that they have to retreat after losing 2 models, that they come rather late, that they are rather expensive to reinforce and they take too long to reinforce.

In other words depending on the map they might be spending most of time away from the battle field...

and that bring us to forward retreat points among other things...
11 Mar 2016, 17:38 PM
#17
avatar of Myself

Posts: 677



Because other people have already seen it. you want to disprove a point that's already been made and brought up in the past.

Man I did not claimed to Pg can not win vs 1 riflemen 2 BARs....I tested 1 PG vs 2 riflemen....
11 Mar 2016, 17:43 PM
#18
avatar of whitesky00

Posts: 468

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Mar 2016, 17:38 PMMyself

Man I did not claimed to Pg can not win vs 1 riflemen 2 BARs....I tested 1 PG vs 2 riflemen....


jump backJump back to quoted post16 Dec 2015, 22:15 PMnewvan
First video Rifles vs PGrens, it will be 5 in total.
1 vet0
http://plays.tv/video/5671deb05f1fe75151
2 vet0
http://plays.tv/video/5671e157b607318088
3 vet3
http://plays.tv/video/5671e4fa9cd793720d
4 vet3
http://plays.tv/video/5671e76e1e367ee901
5 vet3
http://plays.tv/video/5671ea264c19892ac0


from this thread:
https://www.coh2.org/topic/46337/panzer-grenadiers-are-worthless-without-shreks-upgrade

And why in the world would 280mp x 2 lose to 340mp x 1? Where in the world?
11 Mar 2016, 17:53 PM
#19
avatar of PanzerGeneralForever

Posts: 1072

N




from this thread:
https://www.coh2.org/topic/46337/panzer-grenadiers-are-worthless-without-shreks-upgrade

And why in the world would 280mp x 2 lose to 340mp x 1? Where in the world?


There is a trending video where a vet 3 2x bar rifleman squad ties against 2 vet 0 grenadiers.

I guess that's a case where 280mp = 2x 240mp. I'm not saying its OP or UP. Just found a "where in the world" answer for you of a similar scenario.
11 Mar 2016, 17:58 PM
#20
avatar of Thamor

Posts: 290

Problem that people don't understand that pgrens have to close range, where grens do not. So they close to medium and get instant focused, which makes them bleed fast.

Pgrens are best used as flanking/ambushing unit, not as frontal charging unit.

If they just made PzIV same as OKW PzIV all problems would be done for wehrmacht :)
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